I was recently researching different types of horns and horn flares such as Tractrix vs. Conical vs. LeCleach. I wasn't aware there were such polarized viewpoints about the ideal horn structure. I came across some interesting posts:
(note: I'm not choosing sides or trying to offend anyone, also I don't know anything about the individuals involved. Just relating what I found)
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=65255.msg602292
Re: Who amongst us is into SET and/or Hi-Efficiency systems?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 01:04:26 pm »
and:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=3084
A sober view on Cogent True-to-Life Sound.
The 2nd article goes on for awhile ripping the Cogent horns up one side and down the other. Wow! I must be missing a lot of details about this feud, I hope it's more good natured than it sounds. I wasn't aware that people had such extreme views about horns. I assumed all horn types were just compromises of different types.
What types of horns do you feel are the least colored (by the horn structure itself)?
(note: I'm not choosing sides or trying to offend anyone, also I don't know anything about the individuals involved. Just relating what I found)
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=65255.msg602292
Re: Who amongst us is into SET and/or Hi-Efficiency systems?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 01:04:26 pm »
and:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=3084
A sober view on Cogent True-to-Life Sound.
The 2nd article goes on for awhile ripping the Cogent horns up one side and down the other. Wow! I must be missing a lot of details about this feud, I hope it's more good natured than it sounds. I wasn't aware that people had such extreme views about horns. I assumed all horn types were just compromises of different types.
What types of horns do you feel are the least colored (by the horn structure itself)?
Words spoken with dedication dont indicate superior knowledge, even if superior knowledge can lead to words spoken with dedication. You either have the choice to spend years in analyzing, building, measuring, listening or to belief one of the people who seem to know it. My choice would be Geddes, as he constantly has the best arguments.
Horns have their flaws.............
Many fall into the "bad" category.
I believe any parallel walls cause standing waves.
and anywhere that there is a hard break, that can cause a standing wave. And there are impedance peaks (possible standing waves) at the distance from driver to mouth, and both dimensions of the mouth.
I've had ev hp640, ev hp940, klipsch 400 something, ev hr90, and a bowtie from mcm ( 54-330 http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/54-330 ).
A hard sounding horn has glare (usually standing waves 1-5khz).
My current fav is that mcm horn.
Compression drivers usually sound forced due to the typical 10:1 compression ratio.................
You get dynamics and transients that sound real, wood blocks have impact when horn loaded.
But most horns are about getting the most out of a compression driver needed for high spl in a pa system.
I've wanted to try the mcm round horn.
It has a wonderful off axis response and I bet sounds good, but would require a 2khz crossover and a thread on driver.
here is zaph's tmm (round waveguide plus dome)
http://www.zaphaudio.com/WaveguideTMM.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=139921&pagenumber=3
the dome doesn't have a strong enough q to get horn loading the highs.
Also round spherical horns should be the cleanest.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornlautsprecher.php?lang=en
and I'd like to hear these
http://www.stereo-lab.de/tractrix.html
Many fall into the "bad" category.
I believe any parallel walls cause standing waves.
and anywhere that there is a hard break, that can cause a standing wave. And there are impedance peaks (possible standing waves) at the distance from driver to mouth, and both dimensions of the mouth.
I've had ev hp640, ev hp940, klipsch 400 something, ev hr90, and a bowtie from mcm ( 54-330 http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/54-330 ).
A hard sounding horn has glare (usually standing waves 1-5khz).
My current fav is that mcm horn.
Compression drivers usually sound forced due to the typical 10:1 compression ratio.................
You get dynamics and transients that sound real, wood blocks have impact when horn loaded.
But most horns are about getting the most out of a compression driver needed for high spl in a pa system.
I've wanted to try the mcm round horn.
It has a wonderful off axis response and I bet sounds good, but would require a 2khz crossover and a thread on driver.
here is zaph's tmm (round waveguide plus dome)
http://www.zaphaudio.com/WaveguideTMM.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=139921&pagenumber=3
the dome doesn't have a strong enough q to get horn loading the highs.
Also round spherical horns should be the cleanest.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornlautsprecher.php?lang=en
and I'd like to hear these
http://www.stereo-lab.de/tractrix.html
Your safest bet is to ignore Romy as he is entertaining, but has a very polarised view on how things should be and is not accepting of any one else's ideas. Also take with a very large grain of salt the words of people who are trying to sell you stuff, especially if it is expensive.
Some Interesting Reading
Some Interesting Reading
if the horn throat is half the diameter of the diaphragm then the compression ratio is 4:1norman bates said:
But, I'm told that the diaphragm:throat diameter ratios are more towards 1.7:1 giving ~ 3:1 compression ratio.
A 10:1 compression ratio would require a diaphragm of >6inches diameter for a 2inch throated horn. Give me an example.
phase plug maybe ?
"A horn-loaded compression driver or a loudspeaker has a phasing plug with multiple slots and a common annular chamber. The slots extend from an inlet side to the common annular chamber, which extends to an outlet side. Each slot has a path length extending to a common focal point in the common annular chamber. The common focal point has a common path length extending to the outlet side. The phasing plug provides an approximately flat acoustic wave front from the compression driver to the horn. "
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7039211.html
community m200, 2.2" diaphram, 2" exit.
compression ratio 1.84:1
http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec sheets/M200_SPEC.pdf
Norman
"A horn-loaded compression driver or a loudspeaker has a phasing plug with multiple slots and a common annular chamber. The slots extend from an inlet side to the common annular chamber, which extends to an outlet side. Each slot has a path length extending to a common focal point in the common annular chamber. The common focal point has a common path length extending to the outlet side. The phasing plug provides an approximately flat acoustic wave front from the compression driver to the horn. "
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7039211.html
community m200, 2.2" diaphram, 2" exit.
compression ratio 1.84:1
http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec sheets/M200_SPEC.pdf
Norman
AndrewT said:
Altec 1" exit drivers have a short WG terminating into a 5/8" throat with a ~2" diameter diaphragm = ~10.24:1 CR. Their replacements didn't have the WG, being more like the original Bell Labs/WE drivers, so are only ~4:1 CR which means they won't properly load old style 500 Hz horns if a 500 Hz XO is used. The trade-off is a more extended HF due to less acoustic damping and less horn throat 'honk' due to the higher XO point required.
GM
gainphile said:things are more peaceful in OB wold then
Lol, yes. I do see some similarities between OB and horns in their differing methods of reducing room interaction. I would love to hear the incredible dynamics of a good horn which tempts me to try to design a 2-3 way with dual OB 12" Lambda woofers and a horn covering somewhere around 350hz-500hz on up to a tweeter around 7khz.
Maybe mounting a Fostex tweeter with 4 thin fins holding it in the center of the horn even with the widest part of the flair which would also be mounted evenly with the woofers and a delay network for time alignment?
I tried to want to get into horns, but it's just always seemed like their disadvantages far outweigh the advantages in most cases. For instance, their steep roll offs often make even a 2nd order slope difficult/impossible.. usually 4th or even 8th order is required, which sounds absolutely disgusting to me. So, after reading and reading about them and trying to get into it, I guess maybe it's just not for me.
I like 24db LR active crossovers because I like time alignment (except 1/2 ocatve +/- crossover point) !!!!!!!!!!
Now finding a wonderfull sounding active crossover, that's hard to find (unless you modify). I've read the active marchands are nice.
Those opamps lose some of the magic / transparancy in music.
But you can put top of the line ones in...............
And the passive 24db crossovers need mucho drive.
But again, we are playing off the active crossovers weaknesses for their strengths of dynamics and /or extreme volume levels............
I also believe that a horn should only cover a decade (i.e. 500-5khz). Distortion goes nuts in the high end. See this pdf from jbl.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n21.pdf
Then again, way up high on compression drivers, those highs past 5khz or so are all breakup modes. Some ring like a bell (titanium and aluminum) while others tweak the phase plug resonances and driver resonances to make it seem like the highs are fairly flat and there.
I like horns but I havn't found many I can live with.............
Most I've heard have resonances.
One I heard I said "is that a backup singer or a huge bunch of reverb ?" It was the horn echos..............
When used for P.A., it is not as much of an issue compared to playback in our homes.
I try to leave horns behind.
But sooner or later I lust for more impact and dynamics that my dual stacked 4" bamboo drivers can't give me (run with dual 15's under them).
A good clean mid horn (think 1' tall by 2' tall mouth) makes wood blocks have impact. Cymbals have clang. More of a velocity thing versus a pressure thing. Things sounded more real and fun.
Norman
Now finding a wonderfull sounding active crossover, that's hard to find (unless you modify). I've read the active marchands are nice.
Those opamps lose some of the magic / transparancy in music.
But you can put top of the line ones in...............
And the passive 24db crossovers need mucho drive.
But again, we are playing off the active crossovers weaknesses for their strengths of dynamics and /or extreme volume levels............
I also believe that a horn should only cover a decade (i.e. 500-5khz). Distortion goes nuts in the high end. See this pdf from jbl.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n21.pdf
Then again, way up high on compression drivers, those highs past 5khz or so are all breakup modes. Some ring like a bell (titanium and aluminum) while others tweak the phase plug resonances and driver resonances to make it seem like the highs are fairly flat and there.
I like horns but I havn't found many I can live with.............
Most I've heard have resonances.
One I heard I said "is that a backup singer or a huge bunch of reverb ?" It was the horn echos..............
When used for P.A., it is not as much of an issue compared to playback in our homes.
I try to leave horns behind.
But sooner or later I lust for more impact and dynamics that my dual stacked 4" bamboo drivers can't give me (run with dual 15's under them).
A good clean mid horn (think 1' tall by 2' tall mouth) makes wood blocks have impact. Cymbals have clang. More of a velocity thing versus a pressure thing. Things sounded more real and fun.
Norman
BHTX said:I tried to want to get into horns, but it's just always seemed like their disadvantages far outweigh the advantages in most cases. For instance, their steep roll offs often make even a 2nd order slope difficult/impossible.. usually 4th or even 8th order is required, which sounds absolutely disgusting to me. So, after reading and reading about them and trying to get into it, I guess maybe it's just not for me.
Try a larger backchamber. If you choose the right size you can make a much better transition from horn to frontloaded.
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