Thank you very much for everyone's response so far. However, I'm worried that this is turning into a "post your favorite tweeter" thread, which wasn't really my intention.
I'm interested in anyone who has actually heard (and has experience with) the R2904/7000 and believes that a different tweeter sounds better - and can post what makes it sound better. It sounds like a lot of people here have used various tweeters that they've liked, but nobody has really used the R2904/7000. Either that, or you're hiding. Thanks!
SG
I'm interested in anyone who has actually heard (and has experience with) the R2904/7000 and believes that a different tweeter sounds better - and can post what makes it sound better. It sounds like a lot of people here have used various tweeters that they've liked, but nobody has really used the R2904/7000. Either that, or you're hiding. Thanks!
SG
SG,
Interesting thread and discussions. I am also interested in obtaining an answer to the original question.
However, I can't see the possibility. For the same tweeter, if you use different crossover networks therefore having different frequency response profiles, the same tweeter sounds completely differently.
How can you subjectively tell if the 2904/7000 is better than, say, the Seas Millenium and Dynaudio Esotar (I have both of the later)? I could make them sound cold, warm, sparkle, smooth, airy, dull by just changing a resistor or a capacitor.
A fraction of a dB difference between 800Hz to 8kHz can be very audible. In real life, unless you could use the same speaker set up except the tweeters, and you could make two tweeters to produce exactly the same frequency response or at least within 1/10th of a dB, you really couldn't subjectively tell which tweeter is better.
Regards,
Bill
Interesting thread and discussions. I am also interested in obtaining an answer to the original question.
However, I can't see the possibility. For the same tweeter, if you use different crossover networks therefore having different frequency response profiles, the same tweeter sounds completely differently.
How can you subjectively tell if the 2904/7000 is better than, say, the Seas Millenium and Dynaudio Esotar (I have both of the later)? I could make them sound cold, warm, sparkle, smooth, airy, dull by just changing a resistor or a capacitor.
A fraction of a dB difference between 800Hz to 8kHz can be very audible. In real life, unless you could use the same speaker set up except the tweeters, and you could make two tweeters to produce exactly the same frequency response or at least within 1/10th of a dB, you really couldn't subjectively tell which tweeter is better.
Regards,
Bill
I agree with Bill.
There's no way you can sensibly compare raw drivers based on subjective experience. The only reasonable way is to compare their linear/nonlinear distortion measurements performed under the same condition. Most of dome/ring radiator tweeters have been tested by Zaph. I often see people misinterpret Zaph's harmonic distortion plots without considering all the details of his measurement condition.
Among tweeters he has tested so far, the lowest distortion units regardless of price are the Scan-Speak 6600 (same as the new 6620), 7100, and 7000. Their difference in harmonic distortion levels are statistically indistinguishable, at least in his measurements. If I asked to choose only one of them, my pick is the 6600, not because of its lower price but because of its better linear response. My last pick will be the 7000 not because of its highest price but because of its (possibly) higher SPL distortion due to the smaller ring Sd than domes. This is not only my opinion but also consistent with what Zaph himself mentioned at online forums (not diyAudio these days).
The Peerless 810921 and the Seas 27 series are excellent, but not quite up to the level of these Scan-Speak especially w.r.t. 3rd order distortion products.
-jAy
There's no way you can sensibly compare raw drivers based on subjective experience. The only reasonable way is to compare their linear/nonlinear distortion measurements performed under the same condition. Most of dome/ring radiator tweeters have been tested by Zaph. I often see people misinterpret Zaph's harmonic distortion plots without considering all the details of his measurement condition.
Among tweeters he has tested so far, the lowest distortion units regardless of price are the Scan-Speak 6600 (same as the new 6620), 7100, and 7000. Their difference in harmonic distortion levels are statistically indistinguishable, at least in his measurements. If I asked to choose only one of them, my pick is the 6600, not because of its lower price but because of its better linear response. My last pick will be the 7000 not because of its highest price but because of its (possibly) higher SPL distortion due to the smaller ring Sd than domes. This is not only my opinion but also consistent with what Zaph himself mentioned at online forums (not diyAudio these days).
The Peerless 810921 and the Seas 27 series are excellent, but not quite up to the level of these Scan-Speak especially w.r.t. 3rd order distortion products.
-jAy
Just briefly why the 7100 and the 6600 are better than the 7000 from a nonlinear distortion standpoint. Even under Zaph's moderate, 90 dB / 1 m SPL condition, a sign of the 7000's high SPL strain starts to occur in its 2nd order distortion product at 2 kHz and below. Compare its 2nd order distortion level to the 7100's between 1 kHz - 2.5 kHz. The difference is consistently about 5 dB.
-jAy
-jAy
HiFiNutNut said:
Agreed. Which is why if you're very experienced using a particular tweeter, you've already spent time finding an optimal crossover frequency, slope, and level adjustment. I've spent time playing with different tweeters, often using a 48db/oct digital crossover, and there are definite non-subtle quality differences. But rather than buying all the tweeters myself, I'm hoping someone else can share their experience.
SG
Jay_WJ said:
I'm familiar with Zaph's tweeter mishmash, but I am not convinced that harmonic distortion, which I think is often overread from that site, is the major determinant of sound quality. I believe that once HD is below a certain level for each fundamental in each range, it's probably not relevant anymore. Furthermore, IMD (which is even more intrusive sounding than HD) is not even provided by Zaph. I think distortion is great to measure, but there's no way you can rank tweeters based on it. I'd be curious to see what other people think however.
As an aside, I've seen at a handful of DIY and professional designs that use the 7000, and most high-pass at around 2.2-4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff. So looking at the 1-2.5kHz range for F2 HD probably isn't less important.
SG
smellygas said:
4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff with the 7000? You're kidding! What a waste if you understand what I mean. I'd never buy any of these tweeters unless I were to use it with LR4 @ 2 kHz (or below) or with LR2 @ 2.5 kHz (or below). Distortion performance between 1.5 kHz - 4 kHz is the definitive characteristic of any tweeter. Tall order distortion products generated by fundamentals above it are in the frequency range to which our ear is either not very sensitive (> 12 kHz) or can't hear at all (> 20 kHz).
And you should understand why Zaph chose to post only the single tone HD sweeps although he can (see entries titled "Using trending in HD sweeps" and "Tweeter IMD plots" in his Tidbits page). You said you're familiar with Zaph's tweeter mishmash. How many different types of distortion measurements have you seen? If you compare single tone sweeps and multi-tone IMD plots of same drivers, you'll see distortion performance indicated by them is strongly correlated to each other virtually 99.9 % of the time. IMD is simply another type of nonlinear distortion, which is in practice very strongly correlated to what is shown in single tone HD sweeps. I see people often times want to dismiss Zaph's HD sweeps in favor of IMD measurements. This is largely a misguided idea.
If you're in doubt, start by comparing Zaph's single tone sweeps and Mark K's IMD type measurements. They measured many same drivers. See them and digest them. You will see what I mean.
-jAy
smellygas said:
I have heard the Vifa XT ring radiator which I believe is a derivative of the SS ring radiator and I did not care to much for it. I did not measure it and to be honest I could not put my finger on what I did not like (the response could well have been due to the XO or integration with the Vifa PL woofer it was mated to).
smellygas said:
smellygas said:
Each of these tweeters are in the $200+ category. Outside of those who are professionally associated with the industry I dont think too many of us get the occasion to play with more than a few of there drivers. I have heard the Esotar, Revelator, the G2Si etc.. but certainly not enough drivers to pass emphatic judgement.
My wish list however would include the Neos, RAAL, the Illuminator and others.
Jay_WJ said:
Your opinion seems to be at odds with many successful and well-regarded commercial kits and loudspeakers that high-pass the 7000 at 2.2-4kHz. I have not seen any reputable design that crosses this driver over at 2kHz or below, which suggests that your experience with the 7000 is not likely first hand.
That's absurd. By your reasoning, if I were to crossover a $10 Radio Shack tweeter and a R2904/7000 at, say 12kHz, with a 48db/octave slope, they would sound identical. After all, neither would have very much output in the 1.5-4kHz range and thus no audible distortion in that range you believe is so "defining" (and therefore no audible distortion in the harmonics of that freq range either).
SG
smellygas said:
Commercial speakers are commercial speakers, made to make money, not to sound good.
I agree 100% with Jay_WJ. A good tweeter is a tweeter that can be crossed low. For example, the cheap 27TBFC/G can be crossed at 1.5 kHz LR4 due to low distortion, if you don't need too high SPL.
Why spend 200$ on a tweeter to play 4 kHz and higher ? Almost all tweeters are impeccable performers above 4 kHz, even the 5$ tweeters.
smellygas said:
That's why I said the 7000 has no advantage over the 7100 and 6600. It's actually worse. Note that there are merely less than several commercial speaker companies many experienced DIY'ers really respect. So many gimmicks in commerical products.
Yes, exactly, unless the Rat Shack tweeter has an awfully non-flat FR. The Dayton ND20 selling at $8 is an excellent "high-end" tweeter above 4 kHz if you use an acouctic 4th or higher order filter.
Find out who said the following and where:
"The most important criteria in selecting a tweeter is the harmonic distortion on the low end near the crossover point. This is the most audible defining characteristic of a tweeter, more so than top octave frequency response."
-jAy
smellygas said:
Hi ,
Mine experience is this:
I have tested Magico Mini at mine friend's house, a system that I know very well.
I can say that tweeter sound extremly natural, but maybe is the whole speaker that make the difference here.
In fact, shortly after, we have tested also MagicoV3 : Guys, it does not seems the same tweeter! Incredible!
V3 do not sound so choerent as Mini and you can have the impression the tweeter is not so good.
This is false , obyouvsly but you have understood the concept
IMHO, the Audax HD3P is slightly better again than 2904/7000, but
it is not easy to work with it and it requires 3 way..........
Hope this can help
Cheers,
Paolo
My 7000s were very nice paired with 15w/4531koo. The best way that I can describe them is that they were invisible - they simply did not appear to be there.
I can't compare them to many others, but the difference between them and some Seas 27TDF that I have in a secondary system is light and day. As it should be for the cost difference.
I can't compare them to many others, but the difference between them and some Seas 27TDF that I have in a secondary system is light and day. As it should be for the cost difference.
smellygas said:
I do not agree. If you`re to build a really good sounding loudspeaker, you should know it incorporates at least three drivers - a bass, a midrange and a tweeter. When you use a midrange, you can cut at a higher frequency. The tweeter is good If it can produce accurate and natural sound at it`s operating range and if it allows easy and simple crossover design. Commercial speakers cross it at a low frequency because in this way they can build 2 or 2.5 way speakers which are cheaper to build ==> more profit for the maufacturer. My opinion is that ring radiators should be crossed not less than 4.5Khz. The experiments with the 2904/7000 and the XT25TG were enough to prove that.
I agree with this statement, if the deal was in the crossover only, nobody was going to build expensive drivers, and the difference matters. It is important to choose the optimal crossover network for every tweeter and most of them are different. However, a cheap tweeter with it`s optimal crossover would be far away in it`s sound reproduction than a true hi-end tweeter ( not just the price but the performance ) with it`s optimal crossover.
Jay_WJ said:
Are you suggesting that all tweeters sound the same, as long as they are crossed over above 4kHz with 4th order rolloff (and have reasonably flat FR)???
Was this quote published in a peer-reviewed journal or written in a textbook to reflect a conensus opinion? If so, I'd be interested.
SG
Ring radiators do have an advantage over conventional tweeters and this is in the radiating area. The total radiating area of a dual concentric tweeter may be up to 2.5 times the one of a regular dome. Also on the comments about the cross section, every person who puts the music reproduction over the measurements knows that high order crossovers are not usable, it is important to keep the crossover as simple as possible. I would never use anything over 2nd order, this is why I don`t like metal and ceramic cones.
smellygas said:
Correction : no EXPENSIVE tweeter is worth buying unless it can be crossed over at 2kHz or below.
But you got the rest of the sentence right !
Look at all tweeter distortion plots and waterfall plots over 5 kHz, you'll see that most tweeters are perfect or near perfect in that area, at any price. Most tweeters over 5 kHz have good frequency response as well.
Also, as Jay_WJ said, distortion products at 5 kHz are hard to hear, you'll barely hear the 2nd order, you'll barely hear 3rd order, and every other order are inaudible because over 20 kHz... not to mention that again, most tweeters are good over 5 kHz, low distortion, at any price.
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