A number of people who have heard my system have asked "How much does all this cost?". Tough question. Because I put together the system thru sweetheart deals, horse trading, swaps and DIY, it's hard to price. 
As near as I can figure, about $2700.
That does not include the room and room treatments (important!!) but does include the following:
If you had to start from scratch and buy most of it new, I think the system would cost you around $4000. You'd have to do some DIY at that price.
If you already have a source, amp and DAC you like, take about $800 off that - for $3200.
I don't know how much Lynn's system would cost for a DIYer, but that should be pretty close. Not bad for a really great system.
As near as I can figure, about $2700.
That does not include the room and room treatments (important!!) but does include the following:
- Source (CD or network player)
- EQ/DAC with modifications
- Volume control
- Tube amp
- Passive crossovers
- Woofer, midrange and tweeter drivers
- New driver diaphragms
- Midrange horn
- Bass bin + modifications and paint.
If you had to start from scratch and buy most of it new, I think the system would cost you around $4000. You'd have to do some DIY at that price.
If you already have a source, amp and DAC you like, take about $800 off that - for $3200.
I don't know how much Lynn's system would cost for a DIYer, but that should be pretty close. Not bad for a really great system.
The Altec forum measurements(fig 1) match data from several other sources. Aluminum and Titanium diaphragms have break-up modes between 10KHz and 15KHz, but beryllium does not typically break-up until above 18Khz, and usually only above 20Khz. This SPL data shows the more extensive break-up of titanium over aluminum diaphragms.
The general viewpoint is that a beryllium diaphragm has little value with a 2" exit compression driver because the 4" mechanical diaphragm plus phase plug frequency limit is below 10Khz, especially when distortion is also considered. Aluminum diaphragms typically do not start break-up until above 10Khz.
The general viewpoint is that the expense of a Be diaphragm is probably only justified for a 1.4"-1.5" CD to remove Al/Ti 10K-15Khz break-up distortion(fig 2), or for a 1" CD to avoid break-up distortion until over 20Khz(example: TAD 2001). High frequency boost compensation can now extend a flat response to near 20KHz.(3)
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I don't think I've ever said much about it. Will try to correct that. May post some photos tomorrow. None of it is very pretty.
A number of people who have heard my system have asked "How much does all this cost?". Tough question. Because I put together the system thru sweetheart deals, horse trading, swaps and DIY, it's hard to price.
As near as I can figure, about $2700.
That does not include the room and room treatments (important!!) but does include the following:
- Source (CD or network player)
- EQ/DAC with modifications
- Volume control
- Tube amp
- Passive crossovers
- Woofer, midrange and tweeter drivers
- New driver diaphragms
- Midrange horn
- Bass bin + modifications and paint.
If you had to start from scratch and buy most of it new, I think the system would cost you around $4000. You'd have to do some DIY at that price.
If you already have a source, amp and DAC you like, take about $800 off that - for $3200.
I don't know how much Lynn's system would cost for a DIYer, but that should be pretty close. Not bad for a really great system.
The Karna amps have a raw parts cost of about $3000, not counting chassis fabrication or the price of a quad set of 300B's. The LTO Apollo's will probably be around $3000 to $5000, depending on cost of cabinetry and crossover components. The Monarchy DAC that I use is about $1500, and a decent CD transport (with improved low-jitter clock) is about $1000, and/or a high-quality USB -> S/PDIF convertor, which is in the $500 to $1500 range.
The Ariels are plenty revealing of source quality and the LTO Apollo's are considerably more revealing. I recently heard a USB DAC at David Robinson's (editor of Positive Feedback Online) that played downloadable DSD and 2X DSD material, and that was pretty impressive - true mastertape/mike feed quality. No digital artifacts at all. The biggest downside is the USB DSD DAC (which also plays 192/24 PCM, of course) was at a price well outside what I could afford.
Of course, that's what Sony and Philips claimed 30 years ago for the CD, but I guess 30 years late is better than never. It's kind of ironic that now that physical media like CD's are nearly dead, we finally have mastertape sound - and this time around, in downloadable form.
I recently received an e-mail that mirrors others I've seen over the last couple of years. Yes, I have set aside dipoles for now, although Gary Pimm's dipole subwoofers are the best subs I've ever heard. But subwoofers with 500-watt amplifiers and massive EQ are a subject for separate discussion.
The primary purpose of this project, as it was for the Ariels back in the early Nineties, was a good loudspeaker for use with direct-heated triode amplifiers. As soon as dipoles start needing substantial amounts of in-band equalization, that rules out amplifiers in the 6 to 30-watt range. And building triode amplifiers with transmitter tubes with 1kV power supplies is a place I don't want to go. No thanks.
There are two main facts I consider when designing a loudspeaker for use with DHT amplifiers: every extra 1 dB of efficiency saves about 22% of amplifier power. The other fact is a medium-efficiency speaker like the Ariel, at a true 92 dB/meter/watt, is still only 1% efficient. That means when 100 electrical watts go into the loudspeaker, 99 of those watts heat the voice coil and do nothing else. Only 1 of those watts becomes sound.
Audiophile speakers with their real-world 87 dB/meter/watt efficiencies are worse. 99.7 watts heat the voice coil, and only 0.3 watts become sound.
Let's go further and use an audiophile driver with a generous 92 dB/meter/watt efficiency and put it into an equalized dipole system. Before EQ, we're at 1% efficiency. Add 20 dB of boost at the bass end of the spectrum, and the electroacoustic efficiency (at the bass end) is a remarkable 0.01%. Think about that for a moment. You could put in a kilowatt and only get 100 milliwatts of sound out.
Of course, some dipoles only need 6 dB of EQ across the working band. That's still a fourfold drop in efficiency (using the above example, an effective 0.25%) compared to the non-dipole equivalent. Transistor amps are easy to scale to kilowatt levels - and not that expensive to buy, either - but direct-heated triodes start hitting hard limits in the 20 to 30 watt region (for Class A PP operation), and pentodes don't go much above 60 to 100 watts (for Class AB PP with feedback operation).
The primary purpose of this project, as it was for the Ariels back in the early Nineties, was a good loudspeaker for use with direct-heated triode amplifiers. As soon as dipoles start needing substantial amounts of in-band equalization, that rules out amplifiers in the 6 to 30-watt range. And building triode amplifiers with transmitter tubes with 1kV power supplies is a place I don't want to go. No thanks.
There are two main facts I consider when designing a loudspeaker for use with DHT amplifiers: every extra 1 dB of efficiency saves about 22% of amplifier power. The other fact is a medium-efficiency speaker like the Ariel, at a true 92 dB/meter/watt, is still only 1% efficient. That means when 100 electrical watts go into the loudspeaker, 99 of those watts heat the voice coil and do nothing else. Only 1 of those watts becomes sound.
Audiophile speakers with their real-world 87 dB/meter/watt efficiencies are worse. 99.7 watts heat the voice coil, and only 0.3 watts become sound.
Let's go further and use an audiophile driver with a generous 92 dB/meter/watt efficiency and put it into an equalized dipole system. Before EQ, we're at 1% efficiency. Add 20 dB of boost at the bass end of the spectrum, and the electroacoustic efficiency (at the bass end) is a remarkable 0.01%. Think about that for a moment. You could put in a kilowatt and only get 100 milliwatts of sound out.
Of course, some dipoles only need 6 dB of EQ across the working band. That's still a fourfold drop in efficiency (using the above example, an effective 0.25%) compared to the non-dipole equivalent. Transistor amps are easy to scale to kilowatt levels - and not that expensive to buy, either - but direct-heated triodes start hitting hard limits in the 20 to 30 watt region (for Class A PP operation), and pentodes don't go much above 60 to 100 watts (for Class AB PP with feedback operation).
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They sound very good, but in addition to the very high cost (more than double what GPA charges), I am quite concerned about their future availability from TAD/Pioneer. Some of the TAD woofers have already been discontinued, to the chagrin and financial loss of some of my speaker-building friends in the high-end industry.
The TAD line, as good as it is, seems to be going in a non-prosound direction, as evidenced by their most recent flagship loudspeaker, which does not use the classic TAD horn/large-format woofer driver lineup. I've heard that loudspeaker and did not like it at all.
I have been borrowing one of Rene' Jaeger's DAC's, you know the one. With it came an M2 Tech Hi Face USB to SPDIF converter that forces the USB into asynchronous operation.
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html
Can be had for $160 and that, with a true 75 ohm cable one without any ceramic core clamped to it, allows 192/24 recordings if you can find them and 176/24 recordings from places like MA Recordings to be played. Either of these or any of the other formats play without any difficulties from a fully functional Win 7 lap top with a USB external drive storing the music. This is so much better sounding that any of the CD players I have used it's almost unbelievable.
By the way Jack Garfinkle of MA makes his recordings using two mics and a KORG MR2000S digital recorder. Astonishing quality even through a pair of EnALB'd Fostex F127's
Bud
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html
Can be had for $160 and that, with a true 75 ohm cable one without any ceramic core clamped to it, allows 192/24 recordings if you can find them and 176/24 recordings from places like MA Recordings to be played. Either of these or any of the other formats play without any difficulties from a fully functional Win 7 lap top with a USB external drive storing the music. This is so much better sounding that any of the CD players I have used it's almost unbelievable.
By the way Jack Garfinkle of MA makes his recordings using two mics and a KORG MR2000S digital recorder. Astonishing quality even through a pair of EnALB'd Fostex F127's
Bud
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Hi, Just wanted to go along what Bud said, there are currently many very cheap (as in under $500, some under $200) USB interfaces that will play asynchronous 192Khz/24bit and some of them will go up to 384khz and can also play DSD.
Besides m2tech, take a look at www.exadevices.com > Home and exaSound Audio Design > Home . Considering the price tags you mentioned earlier, I believe these are affordable Also, there are lots of DIY initiatives with apparently very good results in this area, which hover around the $100 price tag. A very good blog on this is here: H i F i D U I N O he is experimenting with some chinese interfaces, Musiland and he changes the DAC section, psu, clock, etc. Very good stuff.
Bonus, the exa devices interface streams i2s on eight channels, great for digital crossovers, 5.1, whatever. Eight channels of 384Khz, 32bit, technology is moving along..
Besides m2tech, take a look at www.exadevices.com > Home and exaSound Audio Design > Home . Considering the price tags you mentioned earlier, I believe these are affordable
Also, there are lots of DIY initiatives with apparently very good results in this area, which hover around the $100 price tag. A very good blog on this is here: H i F i D U I N O he is experimenting with some chinese interfaces, Musiland and he changes the DAC section, psu, clock, etc. Very good stuff.Bonus, the exa devices interface streams i2s on eight channels, great for digital crossovers, 5.1, whatever. Eight channels of 384Khz, 32bit, technology is moving along..
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Then there is a sound of beryllium and tone (or lack of it
in TAD drivers. They are like a breath of cold fresh air in the room with a synthetic feel to it. One changes amplification from SET to PP to SS and general feeling remains .They certainly have the impressiveness "built-in" , some love it , some not . You simply can't comment without experiencing one in the system, they don't sound like JBL or Altec, at all. Rgrds, L
Lynn, thanks for the price run down - that helps a lot.
As you can see, I don't go for fancy stuff, even tho I like some of it.
I've used a Hiface USB to Spdif and it worked well, but really no better than some of the other stuff I use. At the moment I'm using an M-Audio Fast Track Pro for USB to Spdif duties. A little expensive just for that, but it's also a great measurement card that's been invaluable to me. It allows 96/24 out, which is plenty for me. My Squeezebox touch does the same.
My DAC is a modified Berhinger DEQ2496. It allows graphic and parametric EQ (as well as a few other tricks) all in the digital domain. Very handy for room corrections, which I use gently. The signal comes straight out of the excellent AKM DAC chips to a pair of Bud's lovely 1:1 transformers. Beautiful! I can also plug in Cinemag, Peerless, Jensen, Sowther, Edcor etc. They all sound good, but all a little different. I have not yet upgraded the analog section PSU, but need to. It makes a very positive difference in the DCX, so should in the DEQ as well.
From the transformers I hit a 4 gang stepped attenuator for balanced volume control. Then on to the amp. If the amp has a volume control, I can skip the attenuator.
For digital playback I run either JRiver Media center or Squeezebox server. JRiver is great and very flexible. The volume control in Jriver is very good, it's done in 32 or 64 bit float, then output as you choose, 32, 24 or 16 bit. I use 24 bit. I've not been able to find any problems with the digital volume, either by ear or by measurement.
I'm happy!
As you can see, I don't go for fancy stuff, even tho I like some of it.
I've used a Hiface USB to Spdif and it worked well, but really no better than some of the other stuff I use. At the moment I'm using an M-Audio Fast Track Pro for USB to Spdif duties. A little expensive just for that, but it's also a great measurement card that's been invaluable to me. It allows 96/24 out, which is plenty for me. My Squeezebox touch does the same.
My DAC is a modified Berhinger DEQ2496. It allows graphic and parametric EQ (as well as a few other tricks) all in the digital domain. Very handy for room corrections, which I use gently. The signal comes straight out of the excellent AKM DAC chips to a pair of Bud's lovely 1:1 transformers. Beautiful! I can also plug in Cinemag, Peerless, Jensen, Sowther, Edcor etc. They all sound good, but all a little different. I have not yet upgraded the analog section PSU, but need to. It makes a very positive difference in the DCX, so should in the DEQ as well.
From the transformers I hit a 4 gang stepped attenuator for balanced volume control. Then on to the amp. If the amp has a volume control, I can skip the attenuator.
For digital playback I run either JRiver Media center or Squeezebox server. JRiver is great and very flexible. The volume control in Jriver is very good, it's done in 32 or 64 bit float, then output as you choose, 32, 24 or 16 bit. I use 24 bit. I've not been able to find any problems with the digital volume, either by ear or by measurement.
I'm happy!
speaker behind the thread?
I am new to this thread. it is very long. a lot of general discussion about speaker design. I wanted to check what speaker topology it settled upon to see if that is something I might be interested in. Can anyone point me to where the actual speaker design is detailed out? Thanks
I am new to this thread. it is very long. a lot of general discussion about speaker design. I wanted to check what speaker topology it settled upon to see if that is something I might be interested in. Can anyone point me to where the actual speaker design is detailed out? Thanks
I am new to this thread. it is very long. a lot of general discussion about speaker design. I wanted to check what speaker topology it settled upon to see if that is something I might be interested in. Can anyone point me to where the actual speaker design is detailed out? Thanks
Here is Lynn's latest description:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-780.html#post3133060
It also has a supertweeter starting at about 7 KHz.
It is also not finished. So I don't know about "settled upon." In human nature, this means that it could change.
After hearing Pano's exquisit system through my own amps, I'm considering building now. If I do start now, I accept that I'll be building it twice; and the second time could be quite different once Lynn finally settles on a first version.
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+1 for
..funny how it's often mentioned that concentric designs can have such impressive depth of field. NOT from TAD (when I've heard them). Then add an over-all artifical sound (with a somewhat "bright" forward emphasis), makes me wonder if reviewers reviewing them (and "singing" their praises), aren't listening to a completely different loudspeaker.
pardon my ignorance lynn but the thread is really far to long to find an answer: were there any talks from your side if a satisfactory results could be reached with an 1" driver. very practical reasons - i can get an 1" AH340 horn locally.
it doesnt make it impossible to reach an aimed 700hz with the best 1" CDs around, altec 802 alnico, radian 475 etc....
