Did the heads of thise thread think to a full range 2" cone, classic cone driver in a embeded horn like Zingalli speakers have ?
xrq971 member did it in the Trynergy thread and the sensivity of the 8 ohms 10F/8428G00 is more than 100 dB in a short 2" throat horn ! It makes a perfect sense above a 15" from Great plains audio between 500 hZ to 800 Hz XO ! This driver is a 4" but the cone is a short 2", so the same than the best compression in dispersion ! 500 Hz to 20 k Hz in a horn is what can do the 10F ! The sound is dynamic, Something very neutral and very low distorded !
It's a serious way, and I believe we will see some good home speakers coming in the years to come like such combo ! 8 ohms is maybe a little low for tubees, but if one can make a passive with the flater phase possible, why not ? (active is maybe even better with phase FIR correction, but off topic here if I understood the goals of the OP)
xrq971 member did it in the Trynergy thread and the sensivity of the 8 ohms 10F/8428G00 is more than 100 dB in a short 2" throat horn ! It makes a perfect sense above a 15" from Great plains audio between 500 hZ to 800 Hz XO ! This driver is a 4" but the cone is a short 2", so the same than the best compression in dispersion ! 500 Hz to 20 k Hz in a horn is what can do the 10F ! The sound is dynamic, Something very neutral and very low distorded !
It's a serious way, and I believe we will see some good home speakers coming in the years to come like such combo ! 8 ohms is maybe a little low for tubees, but if one can make a passive with the flater phase possible, why not ? (active is maybe even better with phase FIR correction, but off topic here if I understood the goals of the OP)
Yup, wondered the same thing, VERY sensitive to R1-R3 changes/balance, but very usable.
Well, that's what I'm using right now in my 22-year-old Ariels. I'm on my second set of drivers, and the D2905/9500 is the tweeter. Small crossover adjustment, but otherwise similar to the discontinued 9000 ... although the original sticky-dome had silkier and smoother sound (but not by much).
Oddly enough, there is a sonic kinship between the pair of 5.5" Vifa's and the Altec/GPA 416's. The rolloff region is well-controlled in both drivers, so the crossover can be fairly simple. Most other midbass drivers, particularly 15" drivers, require either brickwall lowpass filtering or a notch filter, sometimes in the passband.
Not that good speakers can't be made with these kinds of filters ... they can ... but the sound is different compared to a system with smoother drivers and less filtering.
Even though I'm critical of fullrange drivers, I take a middle-ground approach to the overall design, and let the intrinsic (unfiltered) sound of the drivers dominate the overall sound of the loudspeaker. It's kind of a minimal-EQ approach ... there's some in there, but not much.
In subjective terms, the overall sound isn't quite as immediate and "direct" as a fullrange speaker, but it's pretty close, and it doesn't hit the dynamic wall that is a problem for fullrangers.
I'm very sensitive to the disjointed sound of 3 and 4-way speakers with not-quite-right crossovers; it's the first thing that hits me when I walk into a generic high-end room at hifi shows, and is the reason that I walk right out again. Getting even a 2-way system to have the sense of "rightness" and cohesion of a fullranger is not trivial, and is the main reason I avoid 3 and 4-way speakers, even though they measure better. I'll accept a bit (but not much) of driver coloration in return for more immediacy and a sense of musical cohesion.
Most audiophiles seem to prefer what Wilson, Magico, Focal, and B&W have on offer, but that's not to my taste.
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Nothing in particular, just the Usher is as good and half the price. Tons of power handling and measures/sounds as good
In light of this comment I would be fascinated to hear your response to the sounds of the Amphion One15 and One18 that are suddenly taking the pro mixing world by storm this last year. A lot of seasoned engineers are abandoning their very good three ways in favour of these passive two ways, purely for the ease with which they can hear into the mix and the quality of the translation of the resulting mixes to the myriad consumer speakers.
They employ SEAS drivers with a passive radiator. The tweeter has a waveguide and the crossover in all four models is at 1600Hz.
Amphion One15 & One18
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/949764-amphion-beautiful.html
The way I see it, Lynn said "I'm going for a walk".
Some people said "Cool! Walking's fun!"
Some people said "Are you sure about the destination?"
Some people said "Help me! I don't want to get lost!"
Some people said "Walking's dangerous!"
Some people said "Driving's quicker"
Some people said "Wake me up when you get there"
Some people said "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
Meanwhile, Lynn is enjoying his walk...
Well, a big part of the "walk" is helping my friends advance their systems. I gave a lot of encouragement to Gary Dahl for his build, and I'm throwing in suggestions here and there for my neighbor, Thom Mackris, on his NiWatt SE 300B amplifiers. If people disagree, fine, they can do what they want. Lots of threads going on here at diyAudio.
Part of the reason I'm in no particular hurry on my own personal system is I still really like the sound of the Ariels combined with the Karna amplifiers and the Monarchy M24 DAC. It's easy to switch the speakers from the Karna to the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 pre/pro and amplifier, which changes the system from all-triode to (THX certified) all-transistor. The Marantz is perfectly good for movie soundtracks, Netflix, and streaming TV and music from the AppleTV and Amazon Fire TV sources. No point in wearing out a matched quartet of 300B's for that kind of casual listening, and the Marantz is pretty decent upper-mid-fi in quality.
Part of the reason I'm in no particular hurry on my own personal system is I still really like the sound of the Ariels combined with the Karna amplifiers and the Monarchy M24 DAC. It's easy to switch the speakers from the Karna to the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 pre/pro and amplifier, which changes the system from all-triode to (THX certified) all-transistor. The Marantz is perfectly good for movie soundtracks, Netflix, and streaming TV and music from the AppleTV and Amazon Fire TV sources. No point in wearing out a matched quartet of 300B's for that kind of casual listening, and the Marantz is pretty decent upper-mid-fi in quality.
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Lynn Olson, TBH, you are one of my great speaker heroes. 
I loved all that stuff you said about the LGWAG speakers. Speakers that did simple Jazz or Folk well. But failed miserably with complex music.
I keep telling you what to do with your old classic Ariels. Make them MTTM.
The Vifa 13WH is kinda irreplaceable. Why was it discontinued? You have to suspect a Global Conspiracy.
Enjoy one of the greatest vented bass drivers ever made. And now discontinued.
I loved all that stuff you said about the LGWAG speakers. Speakers that did simple Jazz or Folk well. But failed miserably with complex music.
I keep telling you what to do with your old classic Ariels. Make them MTTM.
The Vifa 13WH is kinda irreplaceable. Why was it discontinued? You have to suspect a Global Conspiracy.
Enjoy one of the greatest vented bass drivers ever made. And now discontinued.
Attachments
There were times when I was tempted by the idea of a Super Ariel. If Nutshell High Fidelity had ever been a real manufacturer, it would have been on the market at least ten years ago, due to customer demand and the usual requirement to "fill out the product line".
What would a Super Ariel have been? Maybe a version with integral self-powered subwoofers on the left and right sides of the cabinet ... this is a common format in the home-theater area. No real benefit over the regular Ariel+external subwoofer except convenience in packaging and an all-in-one speaker solution.
A more interesting variant would squeak out another 2~3 dB efficiency and maybe another 3~5 dB in headroom. If I were manufacturing, this would be the Ariel at 1.5x to 1.8x the price. The midbass drivers would almost certainly be carefully selected 6.5~8" paper-cones in MTM configuration, and a carefully selected AMT tweeter. In the real world, I'd have to commission both drivers, since I haven't seen too much on the consumer market that really fits the bill of very smooth response and robust power-handling.
One real benefit of custom-order drivers (and annual purchases in the 100+ range) is the driver vendor doesn't sneak in those annoying little production variations that appear in consumer-grade drivers. You can ask the driver vendor to keep it just the same and not mess around with "improvements" to the driver. One example is glue; environmental restrictions in the EU and North America keep getting tighter and tighter, and some of the glues aren't very nice for human beings. Unfortunately, glues have a big effect on the sound of the driver, even though it's completely invisible to the user (and speaker builder).
What would a Super Ariel have been? Maybe a version with integral self-powered subwoofers on the left and right sides of the cabinet ... this is a common format in the home-theater area. No real benefit over the regular Ariel+external subwoofer except convenience in packaging and an all-in-one speaker solution.
A more interesting variant would squeak out another 2~3 dB efficiency and maybe another 3~5 dB in headroom. If I were manufacturing, this would be the Ariel at 1.5x to 1.8x the price. The midbass drivers would almost certainly be carefully selected 6.5~8" paper-cones in MTM configuration, and a carefully selected AMT tweeter. In the real world, I'd have to commission both drivers, since I haven't seen too much on the consumer market that really fits the bill of very smooth response and robust power-handling.
One real benefit of custom-order drivers (and annual purchases in the 100+ range) is the driver vendor doesn't sneak in those annoying little production variations that appear in consumer-grade drivers. You can ask the driver vendor to keep it just the same and not mess around with "improvements" to the driver. One example is glue; environmental restrictions in the EU and North America keep getting tighter and tighter, and some of the glues aren't very nice for human beings. Unfortunately, glues have a big effect on the sound of the driver, even though it's completely invisible to the user (and speaker builder).
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Lynn,
I have been talking about adhesives and how they affect a speakers overall sound for awhile with very few understanding how this works or even believing that a thin film of adhesive can truly make a difference in the sound of a finish speaker. The driver in most speaker manufacturers selection of adhesives has become purely a selection based on the speed of assembly of a device, sound quality and effect is basically ignored. Fast setting CA adhesives and even light cured acrylics are used for those exact reasons, more than a factor of human toxicity or environmental damage. Few manufacturers are considering the effects of adhesive materials on the final end result.
I have been talking about adhesives and how they affect a speakers overall sound for awhile with very few understanding how this works or even believing that a thin film of adhesive can truly make a difference in the sound of a finish speaker. The driver in most speaker manufacturers selection of adhesives has become purely a selection based on the speed of assembly of a device, sound quality and effect is basically ignored. Fast setting CA adhesives and even light cured acrylics are used for those exact reasons, more than a factor of human toxicity or environmental damage. Few manufacturers are considering the effects of adhesive materials on the final end result.
It's a little sobering to realize the transmission path from current-flow through the voice-coil to acoustical pressure waves at the ears of the listener.
The VC moves (mostly) front-to-back in a somewhat nonuniform magnetic field. Thanks to residual imbalances in construction, there are parasitic rocking modes for the VC assembly, particularly in the HF/rolloff region of the driver. Then the mechanical energy of the VC is transferred to the VC former through a glue that is not necessarily stable over time, and may be affected by temperature. The VC is by far the hottest part of the loudspeaker, and worse, where 99% (or more) of the amplifier power ends up, uselessly heating the voice coil.
The energy from the VC former is then transferred to the diaphragm through another glue, and also makes a partial turn though about 60 to 70 degrees from cylindrical former to a shallow cone. The glue at this location may have a substantial loss term, since it's at the mechanical intersection and termination of both cone and former. Mechanical loss terms are not usually as linear as electrical resistors, and may have low-level hysteresis effects.
There's also the glue that attaches the spider, which has its own set of mechanical resonances. The spider has multiple tasks of assuring long linear excursion (without hysteresis effects), preventing the VC former from hitting the end stops on the longest excursions, keeping the VC former centered and moving only in a front-to-back direction, and last but not least, not adding too many additional modes and standing waves of its own.
There's also the dust cap, which is usually little more than cosmetic, and not usually chosen for damping properties. Dustcaps from lossy materials like compressed felt seem to be fairly rare, for reasons I don't understand.
Last but not least, there's the glue attaching the surround, which nominally should damp the outer edge of the cone, assure an air-seal, and work with the spider to keep the cone moving only in a back-to-front direction (preventing parasitic rocking modes).
The glues are asked to do a lot, and are the essential interface between the key mechanical components of the driver. Consumers like to look at the cone, and marketing materials blather about the fantastic scientific breakthough of this or that material, but the parts you don't see are just as important.
You can't see the field structure in the gap, but it matters. You can't see the glues, but they matter. These are the kind of things that driver vendors like to play around with during the production life of a given driver, and from the viewpoint of the buyer, sometimes hard to detect or measure.
Unfortunately driver measurements are only an oblique indicator of the sonic personality of the driver. And all drivers have a personality; truly neutral drivers (in the sense of electrical components) do not exist, and may not be possible for many decades in the future. So we have to work with quite imperfect electromechanical components with hidden production variations.
It might sound a little odd, but I think of speaker design as more like artisan brewing than camera lens design. Sure, there's lot of modern measuring technology involved, but the listener experience does not lend itself to hard quantification except in the crudest dislike/like axis. The "personality" of a given driver, made at a given time, is harder to pin down.
The VC moves (mostly) front-to-back in a somewhat nonuniform magnetic field. Thanks to residual imbalances in construction, there are parasitic rocking modes for the VC assembly, particularly in the HF/rolloff region of the driver. Then the mechanical energy of the VC is transferred to the VC former through a glue that is not necessarily stable over time, and may be affected by temperature. The VC is by far the hottest part of the loudspeaker, and worse, where 99% (or more) of the amplifier power ends up, uselessly heating the voice coil.
The energy from the VC former is then transferred to the diaphragm through another glue, and also makes a partial turn though about 60 to 70 degrees from cylindrical former to a shallow cone. The glue at this location may have a substantial loss term, since it's at the mechanical intersection and termination of both cone and former. Mechanical loss terms are not usually as linear as electrical resistors, and may have low-level hysteresis effects.
There's also the glue that attaches the spider, which has its own set of mechanical resonances. The spider has multiple tasks of assuring long linear excursion (without hysteresis effects), preventing the VC former from hitting the end stops on the longest excursions, keeping the VC former centered and moving only in a front-to-back direction, and last but not least, not adding too many additional modes and standing waves of its own.
There's also the dust cap, which is usually little more than cosmetic, and not usually chosen for damping properties. Dustcaps from lossy materials like compressed felt seem to be fairly rare, for reasons I don't understand.
Last but not least, there's the glue attaching the surround, which nominally should damp the outer edge of the cone, assure an air-seal, and work with the spider to keep the cone moving only in a back-to-front direction (preventing parasitic rocking modes).
The glues are asked to do a lot, and are the essential interface between the key mechanical components of the driver. Consumers like to look at the cone, and marketing materials blather about the fantastic scientific breakthough of this or that material, but the parts you don't see are just as important.
You can't see the field structure in the gap, but it matters. You can't see the glues, but they matter. These are the kind of things that driver vendors like to play around with during the production life of a given driver, and from the viewpoint of the buyer, sometimes hard to detect or measure.
Unfortunately driver measurements are only an oblique indicator of the sonic personality of the driver. And all drivers have a personality; truly neutral drivers (in the sense of electrical components) do not exist, and may not be possible for many decades in the future. So we have to work with quite imperfect electromechanical components with hidden production variations.
It might sound a little odd, but I think of speaker design as more like artisan brewing than camera lens design. Sure, there's lot of modern measuring technology involved, but the listener experience does not lend itself to hard quantification except in the crudest dislike/like axis. The "personality" of a given driver, made at a given time, is harder to pin down.
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If you decide to this I can hook you up with somebody that has an excellent manufacturing source and long time track record in this.
I'm pretty certain he can do whatever you want and does small batch so if you ever want a name and number sent me a message and you can talk to him. I have many of his drivers here I've evaluated and played with and some are really top notch - he does a lot with neodymium hifi grade now.
Lynn,
Great synopsis of the assembly of a standard dynamic driver. I agree that the finer points of assembly are just lost in the minutia of marketing when it comes to the consumer and even here on DIY with what is really important in a speaker build. I will tell you I use some adhesives that would never be used by a mass producer and most other builders of loudspeakers just because of the absolute hassle and difficulty of using some of these adhesives.
I've been a materials guy and also involved in R&D long enough to understand why this is so and how this is looked at by a manufacturer as far as cost and time studies. It would be very difficult if not impossible to get most majors to change a fast setting adhesive for one that would slow the line, sound quality be damned. It's just much easier to talk about some fancy material that may have no real effects on the sound of a speaker than to truly develop the highest quality solutions. Lean manufacturing and time studies are directed at maximizing production, not to maximize the sound quality. The use of a single type of adhesive to manufacture a speaker would be a great cost saving solution meeting lean manufacturing demands, to bad that is the worst thing you can do. Putting some of those CA and acrylic adhesives in some of the positions that they are used is just wrong, but who is going to tell that to their end users, marketing would never let that happen.
If the new job I have been interviewing for goes as it has been I will finally be in the position to complete my speakers. The great thing about that position is I may actually be able to use my knowledge in a completely new area and at the same time take me to Asia often where I can finish some of the development that I have been working on. Some of the components in speakers have Asian sources as sole solutions such as Neo magnetic materials and a few other things that are just so much cheaper to do there. I am hopeful that this new position that also puts me directly into the mass production of speakers for a completely different industry is the final piece that allows me to complete my vision. At the same time I may have a hand in actually improving the sound of cell phones for everyone who uses those devices. I will have my answer in the first weeks of next year.
PS. I am thinking that the development work I did on my original round speakers in the 7" frame size may be a solution for those who still want to make a new Ariel type of design following your requirements. My last testing of full range testing showed these drivers to have a very flat response from 35hz to 10Khz with extended excursion limits that may just fit the bill for that type of speaker with a simple first order filter and a simple dome tweeter to go above. I would like to send you or someone interested a pair of speakers early next year so they can determine if this meets the requirements you have stated. It is time for me to get off the dime and let the diy community have another possibility for a great sounding two way system.
Have a great holiday season and I will let you know next month if things work out the way they are looking. Only thing is I have to move to Silicone Valley to do all of this. Stay tuned.
Great synopsis of the assembly of a standard dynamic driver. I agree that the finer points of assembly are just lost in the minutia of marketing when it comes to the consumer and even here on DIY with what is really important in a speaker build. I will tell you I use some adhesives that would never be used by a mass producer and most other builders of loudspeakers just because of the absolute hassle and difficulty of using some of these adhesives.
I've been a materials guy and also involved in R&D long enough to understand why this is so and how this is looked at by a manufacturer as far as cost and time studies. It would be very difficult if not impossible to get most majors to change a fast setting adhesive for one that would slow the line, sound quality be damned. It's just much easier to talk about some fancy material that may have no real effects on the sound of a speaker than to truly develop the highest quality solutions. Lean manufacturing and time studies are directed at maximizing production, not to maximize the sound quality. The use of a single type of adhesive to manufacture a speaker would be a great cost saving solution meeting lean manufacturing demands, to bad that is the worst thing you can do. Putting some of those CA and acrylic adhesives in some of the positions that they are used is just wrong, but who is going to tell that to their end users, marketing would never let that happen.
If the new job I have been interviewing for goes as it has been I will finally be in the position to complete my speakers. The great thing about that position is I may actually be able to use my knowledge in a completely new area and at the same time take me to Asia often where I can finish some of the development that I have been working on. Some of the components in speakers have Asian sources as sole solutions such as Neo magnetic materials and a few other things that are just so much cheaper to do there. I am hopeful that this new position that also puts me directly into the mass production of speakers for a completely different industry is the final piece that allows me to complete my vision. At the same time I may have a hand in actually improving the sound of cell phones for everyone who uses those devices. I will have my answer in the first weeks of next year.
PS. I am thinking that the development work I did on my original round speakers in the 7" frame size may be a solution for those who still want to make a new Ariel type of design following your requirements. My last testing of full range testing showed these drivers to have a very flat response from 35hz to 10Khz with extended excursion limits that may just fit the bill for that type of speaker with a simple first order filter and a simple dome tweeter to go above. I would like to send you or someone interested a pair of speakers early next year so they can determine if this meets the requirements you have stated. It is time for me to get off the dime and let the diy community have another possibility for a great sounding two way system.
Have a great holiday season and I will let you know next month if things work out the way they are looking. Only thing is I have to move to Silicone Valley to do all of this. Stay tuned.
I was ranting about the smooth polycone Vifa P13WH used in the Ariel not being available any more, but I see this US-available Aurum Cantus AC-130F1 5-1/4" Woofer driver that does much the same:
Aurum Cantus AC-130F1 5-1/4" Woofer
Jeff Bagby uses that one in his little BBC LS3/5A homage Continuum. Lynn, what's stopping you using that modern and available driver in the Ariel Mk. 2?
Aurum Cantus AC-130F1 5-1/4" Woofer
Jeff Bagby uses that one in his little BBC LS3/5A homage Continuum. Lynn, what's stopping you using that modern and available driver in the Ariel Mk. 2?
Actually, that'd be Mk. 7 but who's countingLynn, what's stopping you using that modern and available driver in the Ariel Mk. 2?
Be interesting to hear it - there's a bit of a scary wiggle at about 1k2Hz, visible in all three plots. And what looks like cone breakup at around 3K - right in the cross over region. The P13 has some wiggles round there abouts (at least when driven to 130db - see Linkwitz) so it may not be all bad. Roll out the pink noise test...
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