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Old 21st June 2007, 03:19 PM   #1191
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MJK


Sorry Earl, I can't resist this one.

Passionate about what? Audio equipment? Acoustic performance? Enjoying listening to music?

I have no interest in home theater.
Last first - big big big mistake - visual aspects of music performances highten the experince immensly. You are missing out big time here.

I abhor "audio equipment", I love designing speakers because it is challenging, but I do it all because I am passionate about the music. To claim that the quality of the playback is not highly important to the listening experience is totally incorrect in my mind.

And I love film - it is nearly on par with music IMO. I want my theater to rival the best commercial ones - it does.
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Old 21st June 2007, 03:28 PM   #1192
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Default Freq and imaging

I think the question of reflections and diffusion is freq dependent. If you look at diffusors used on studios they don't affect the bass and midbass areas.

A Wave guide like Earl uses would get rid of some of the problems with the rear and side walls.

In Generals though and OB design isn't the best for a small listening room. The need room to work their best.
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Old 21st June 2007, 03:28 PM   #1193
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Default Re: Re: Room diffusion

Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee



I don't have anything against RPG, but the best room acoustics that I have obtained don't use any of their products. Its easy to build the right things into the room. Read my book on home theater and you will see that expensive "sound fixes" are simply not necessary. I have never used any in any of the dozen or so rooms that I have built.
Thanks for the info Earl, I haven't read your book. I was aware of RPG and their attempts ti scientifically design room acoustic devices and control room acoustics.
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Old 21st June 2007, 03:39 PM   #1194
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: Freq and imaging

Quote:
Originally posted by kevinh
I think the question of reflections and diffusion is freq dependent. If you look at diffusors used on studios they don't affect the bass and midbass areas.

A Wave guide like Earl uses would get rid of some of the problems with the rear and side walls.

In Generals though and OB design isn't the best for a small listening room. The need room to work their best.

Bass and midbass are pretty forgiving of reflections - yes. It is, as I said in another post, the range above about 1 kHz that dominates the percption situation.

The waveguides are best for the wall behind the speakers and the side walls.

Your last point is enlightening - especially given the "room size" discussions above. I barely have enough room in my "huge" home for highly directional loudspeakers that aren't so sensitive to room boundaries - I can't imagine how much space would be required for OB's to work their best.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:02 PM   #1195
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

I guess point of view is everything. My home here is worth about $450,000, only slightly above the midpoint of home values for the metropolitan area, and not that high even by national standards. Actually low for my part of the woods. I never considered it large, I have many friends in much larger.

Its all a matter of choices, where we live, how big our house is, if we have a dedicated litening room. I strongly objected to the post claiming that this whole discussion of room layout was achedemic, and that no one in their right mind would ever do this. THAT WAS UNREASONABLE.
For comparison, my house is worth about $600k and is 1,300sqft and has no room even close to the size of your HT. Not to put down MI, but MI has the worst economy in the US with the highest UE and is the majority of the subprime mess right now. It is really low on the value index of home prices nation wide. The coasts are far more expensive places to live.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:07 PM   #1196
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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I realize it is all choices. My point was that I think you think that the majority of audiophiles can build a dedicated medium sized space if it were high enough priority and I don't think that is quite true.

When it comes to choices, I don't think there is many places in the midwest where a 31 year old guy can make the kind of living where he could afford to buy a $600k home (without massive leverage, i.e. >25% down). The higher paying jobs are typically on the coasts, with the exception being Chicago.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:47 PM   #1197
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Default Re: Re: Freq and imaging

Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
The waveguides are best for the wall behind the speakers and the side walls.

Your last point is enlightening - especially given the "room size" discussions above. I barely have enough room in my "huge" home for highly directional loudspeakers that aren't so sensitive to room boundaries - I can't imagine how much space would be required for OB's to work their best.
Outdoors with a wall or building 3-4m behind the speakers is best. A friend has one of my sets of OB's, just a pair of cheap 15" selenium coax with my bass enhancer pathway. We set them up 10-15ft outside in front of his hotel and it's the most "live" sound I've ever heard, much better soundwise than any concert I've attended. I can't wait to get over there for another concert night.

Indoors I use significant attenuation of the rear output, making placement much easier, while retaining the natural open OB sound. My front/rear WG's require even more rear attenuation because their output is so much more focused by the rear WG.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:55 PM   #1198
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK
I realize it is all choices. My point was that I think you think that the majority of audiophiles can build a dedicated medium sized space if it were high enough priority and I don't think that is quite true.

When it comes to choices, I don't think there is many places in the midwest where a 31 year old guy can make the kind of living where he could afford to buy a $600k home (without massive leverage, i.e. >25% down). The higher paying jobs are typically on the coasts, with the exception being Chicago.

I don't think that this is true - any of it.

I don't think that the "majority of audiophiles can build dedicated ... spaces", its just that I focus on the higher end of the market where people ARE more likely to take thier listening serious and dedicate a space. I realize and understand that this may be the exception. Do you realize and understand that the mass is not what I am aiming at? I want to work with and for the individual who is interested in the extreme - not the norm.

I have always found the midwest to have the highest "standard of living" in the States and Chicago is King in this regard. But Chicago is not the only place, hardly. There are jobs all across the midwest - not great now, but they are there. The coasts do pay more, but the standard of living is always lower. I have been sought after time and time again by companies on the coasts - they can never compete with my standard of living.

I had a dedicated listening room in the basement of my meager $80,000 home when I was right out of school - about 31. That house is much more today, but I would say that a theater like mine could easily be put into a home costing around $200,000 in this area. I know, I have done it for a friend.

Living on the coasts costs you a lot in terms of standard of living. But its your choice.
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Old 21st June 2007, 05:05 PM   #1199
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK


For comparison, my house is worth about $600k and is 1,300sqft and has no room even close to the size of your HT. Not to put down MI, but MI has the worst economy in the US with the highest UE and is the majority of the subprime mess right now. It is really low on the value index of home prices nation wide. The coasts are far more expensive places to live.

MI has its ups and downs - and yes its way down now, but I don't know anyone who is starving and all my friends and family are employed and living well. MI has also had the best ecomony in the US in the past - in the last ten years. Living here you learn what "ups and downs" are all about. One year you get a million dollar bonus and the next year you pray you don't loose your job.

Its all about choices.

My wifes home in Hong Kong wasn't even big enough for a couch let alone a stereo. She doesn't live there anymore - she likes MI.

By the way have you read Dr. Taleb's book "Black Swans"? You really should.
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Old 21st June 2007, 05:07 PM   #1200
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Default Re: Re: Re: Freq and imaging

Quote:
Originally posted by johninCR


Outdoors with a wall or building 3-4m behind the speakers is best. A friend has one of my sets of OB's, just a pair of cheap 15" selenium coax with my bass enhancer pathway. We set them up 10-15ft outside in front of his hotel and it's the most "live" sound I've ever heard, much better soundwise than any concert I've attended. I can't wait to get over there for another concert night.

Indoors I use significant attenuation of the rear output, making placement much easier, while retaining the natural open OB sound. My front/rear WG's require even more rear attenuation because their output is so much more focused by the rear WG.

John: it's so hard to follow all the posts on so many different forums/threads by dedicated DIYer's, and particularly those experimenting with designs that have proven to be "impractical" for those of us with restricted domestic circumstances.

The few times I've had opportunity to play with OB's, they definitely sounded best in an outdoors situation, and notably with much clutter starting a few meters behind the panels, and extending several further back. How do you achieve the attenuation / diffraction of the rear wave for your indoor situation?
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