for Lynn...
here is an example of a German ESL designed for PA applications. I have not looked up the sensitivity figures for the Raal ribbon but are they far off this? What wattage of SE amp had you considered to run your Raal's with? Hope that this is of interest to you. Regards Moray james.
http://www.pasystems.de/pasa.html
System Specifications for 1 Loudspeaker "Series" ( Prototype ):
Frequency Response ( active Crossover 24 dB ): 100 Hz - 22.000 Hz
Dispersion horizontal / vertical: " 45° / 5° " ( 30° / 5° )
Sensitivity " 94 dB" ( 92 dB ) / 2.83 volts / 4 meter
Maximum SPL " 124 dB / 900 Watt " ( 120 dB / 800 Watt ) 1 % THD / distance 4 m
Power Handling ( active Crossover 24 dB ): " 900 " ( 800 ) watts RMS / 4 Ohms / 180 Hz
Recommend Power Amplification: 50 - 1000 watts per channel / 2 Ohms stable
Impedance Magnetude: " minimum 1.8 Ohm at 22,5 kHz " ( 3.5 Ohm at 20 kHz )
Weight: 25 - 35 kg
Size System / ( Stator only ) HWD " 160 / 50 / 5 cm " ( 160 / 60 / 5 cm )
Measurements from Mr. Anselm Goertz, Institut for Audio & Acoustics Consulting Aachen
here is an example of a German ESL designed for PA applications. I have not looked up the sensitivity figures for the Raal ribbon but are they far off this? What wattage of SE amp had you considered to run your Raal's with? Hope that this is of interest to you. Regards Moray james.
http://www.pasystems.de/pasa.html
System Specifications for 1 Loudspeaker "Series" ( Prototype ):
Frequency Response ( active Crossover 24 dB ): 100 Hz - 22.000 Hz
Dispersion horizontal / vertical: " 45° / 5° " ( 30° / 5° )
Sensitivity " 94 dB" ( 92 dB ) / 2.83 volts / 4 meter
Maximum SPL " 124 dB / 900 Watt " ( 120 dB / 800 Watt ) 1 % THD / distance 4 m
Power Handling ( active Crossover 24 dB ): " 900 " ( 800 ) watts RMS / 4 Ohms / 180 Hz
Recommend Power Amplification: 50 - 1000 watts per channel / 2 Ohms stable
Impedance Magnetude: " minimum 1.8 Ohm at 22,5 kHz " ( 3.5 Ohm at 20 kHz )
Weight: 25 - 35 kg
Size System / ( Stator only ) HWD " 160 / 50 / 5 cm " ( 160 / 60 / 5 cm )
Measurements from Mr. Anselm Goertz, Institut for Audio & Acoustics Consulting Aachen
Hi
anybody who had heard or can comment on the PodiumSound that also should have been on RMAF ?
http://www.podiumsound.co.uk/homepage.html
BTW in the review there are some interesting statements concerning the perception of sound in space that also highlight facets of Lynn's dedicated standpoints and preferences .
Greetings
Michael
anybody who had heard or can comment on the PodiumSound that also should have been on RMAF ?
http://www.podiumsound.co.uk/homepage.html
BTW in the review there are some interesting statements concerning the perception of sound in space that also highlight facets of Lynn's dedicated standpoints and preferences .
Greetings
Michael
planar drivers
If your finances aren't infinite
Another planar alternative to consider (takes a little research to track them down) are the ATC neoplanars used on Paul Allen's yacht... I've got 2 more on the way
I've had great luck with these, handle 150 watts rms, 94dB sensitivity, PET backed membranes, neo magnets... got 2 more on the way for ALOT less money than any of the RAAL's, Aurum Cantus, etc. SOA stuff... run dipole or monopole
Neoplanar 25"
RAAL 70-10
John L.
If your finances aren't infinite
Another planar alternative to consider (takes a little research to track them down) are the ATC neoplanars used on Paul Allen's yacht... I've got 2 more on the way
I've had great luck with these, handle 150 watts rms, 94dB sensitivity, PET backed membranes, neo magnets... got 2 more on the way for ALOT less money than any of the RAAL's, Aurum Cantus, etc. SOA stuff... run dipole or monopole
Neoplanar 25"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RAAL 70-10
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
John L.
Lynn Olson said:
Have you checked PHL. Mine are PHL3450 10" mid and they sound awesome with 101dB sensitivity. I love them.
http://www.phlaudio.com/main.html
Hi
Salas, yes seems so.
Very simple construction on a first glance with great LF capability if I understood right. Wonder what materials were used for the surrounding if there is any at all.
JohnL, what speakers are your plots from, have a link ? Is this a DIY planar driver with LF output capability?
Greetings
Michael
salas said:
Can it be some short of mechanical line driven NXT cousin concept?
Salas, yes seems so.
Very simple construction on a first glance with great LF capability if I understood right. Wonder what materials were used for the surrounding if there is any at all.
JohnL, what speakers are your plots from, have a link ? Is this a DIY planar driver with LF output capability?
Greetings
Michael
panomaniac said:
The Tact/Lyngdorf is middle of the road in the grand scheme of room correction solutions so imagine what's possible with the more advanced and better sounding solutions.
Room correction done correctly offers insights into music that rarely are possible without. Its great leveller that almost universally serves to offer greater performance headroom. Take an analogue loudspeaker in an average room implement the digital filtering and correction and 99% of the time its an improvement and sometimes a vast one at that.
There's still some debate over digitally implemented crossovers vs. analogue and the waters are less clear here or in other words there's no clear advantage to either. One definite plus for the digital crossover route, although not inherent to filter slopes, is that driver correction is possible with the more advanced solutions and again can serve up improvements similar in scale to room correction. The two used in tandem are irreproachable compared to an analogue setup unless used in a specialised room with carefully matched drivers.
All the above assumes competent implementation of any chosen solution. There's junk in every field of engineering regardless of price but given a relatively level playing field I believe the above to be absolutely spot on from my experiences.
mige0 said:
These really had a bad press on another forum with only a one or two people saying they liked them but they were jazz fans and apparently these speakers are biased in that direction.
http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17051&highlight=podium+sound
I've not heard them myself but usually opinions are mixed on whatever loudspeaker design your discussing. This one stuck out because its heavily disliked.
No doubt they'll sound quite different to the average loudspeaker so maybe this change is what people can't agree with rather than actually being genuinely bad performers?
Shocked.....Vintage JBL
by both build and sound quality. Besides a few pro drivers, I haven't seen build quality like this in anything in current production hifi drivers. It just doesn't exist.
I picked up a pair of JBL 123a-1's from ebay and popped them into my test 17" x 48" open baffle last night with the Audax PR170MO. I bought them because their T/S parameters looked good for open baffle, they can be had for reasonable dollars, and a compelling writeup on Troels Gravesen's website. I listened to music for about four hours straight and listened to whole albums, not just the cuts for testing. It made me remember how nice it is to have good sounding hifi at home. I was moved! And the bass...is incredible. Very solid to 40, even 31.5 hz. 25 and 20 hz are still there, but weaker.
Going with TAD is great if you have the $$$ or can organize a group buy, and once Lynn arrives at a design that will surely be possible. A friend of mine has a 4 way horn loaded TAD/JBL system and it is wonderful.
Thanks,
C
by both build and sound quality. Besides a few pro drivers, I haven't seen build quality like this in anything in current production hifi drivers. It just doesn't exist.
I picked up a pair of JBL 123a-1's from ebay and popped them into my test 17" x 48" open baffle last night with the Audax PR170MO. I bought them because their T/S parameters looked good for open baffle, they can be had for reasonable dollars, and a compelling writeup on Troels Gravesen's website. I listened to music for about four hours straight and listened to whole albums, not just the cuts for testing. It made me remember how nice it is to have good sounding hifi at home. I was moved! And the bass...is incredible. Very solid to 40, even 31.5 hz. 25 and 20 hz are still there, but weaker.
Going with TAD is great if you have the $$$ or can organize a group buy, and once Lynn arrives at a design that will surely be possible. A friend of mine has a 4 way horn loaded TAD/JBL system and it is wonderful.
Thanks,
C
Hi
Agree, but still interesting if you also have a look at the reflections Earl stated about the vast differences in perception related to style preferences :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1241559#post1241559
Thanks for the link .
Loved your thread and postings about PC-XO – very inspiring !
Greetings
Michael
salas said:
Agree, but still interesting if you also have a look at the reflections Earl stated about the vast differences in perception related to style preferences :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1241559#post1241559
ShinOBIWAN said:
Thanks for the link .
Loved your thread and postings about PC-XO – very inspiring !
Greetings
Michael
Take a Peek
Over what Magnetar is doing. This is the point I've been trying to make all along - dipoles don't have to be a "wuss" when it comes to impact, dynamics, and confident power-handling.
Almost everything I've seen so far - in terms of commercial product - doesn't "get it" in terms of what can really be done with dipoles and quasi-cardioids. Not enough radiating area, and feeble audiophile drivers instead of generous cone area and professional-monitor dynamics. In a dipole or quasi-cardioid, from 300 Hz on down, you can't have too much cone area, or too much efficiency.
Certainly makes a 4X array of 12" bass drivers (Tone Tubby?) look attractive, with a single 10NDA610 (103 dB efficient) or similar handling the mids. (I mention the 10NDA610 because of the extremely high ratio of BL product to cone mass - which implies very high acceleration factor.)
Over what Magnetar is doing. This is the point I've been trying to make all along - dipoles don't have to be a "wuss" when it comes to impact, dynamics, and confident power-handling.
Almost everything I've seen so far - in terms of commercial product - doesn't "get it" in terms of what can really be done with dipoles and quasi-cardioids. Not enough radiating area, and feeble audiophile drivers instead of generous cone area and professional-monitor dynamics. In a dipole or quasi-cardioid, from 300 Hz on down, you can't have too much cone area, or too much efficiency.
Certainly makes a 4X array of 12" bass drivers (Tone Tubby?) look attractive, with a single 10NDA610 (103 dB efficient) or similar handling the mids. (I mention the 10NDA610 because of the extremely high ratio of BL product to cone mass - which implies very high acceleration factor.)
How much should we expect from a "high ratio of BL product to cone mass"?
Here are some candidates:
Driver``````BL(tm)````Mms(g)```BL/Mms (ms^-2.A^-1)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
10ND610````` 20.3`````30``````676.67
8M400```````12.2 `````14``````871.43
8PE21```````16.6``````18 `````922.22
AN Super8```11.023```11.54`````955.2
FE206ESR````10.2`````12.3`````829.27
PR170Z0`````10.0`````6.2`````1612.9
Audiom7k`````8.94````7.3`````1224.66
As can be seen, strong magnets do help a lot. However, bigger cones are considerably heavier than the smaller ones. They pull the numbers down quite a lot.
So, it seems the cone area (or the whole loading) of the driver should be considered? But how? Taking a further product with cone area?
From the datasheets, FR of 10ND610 & 8M400 are not attactive at all. Usable range looks so narrow. And there's a huge bump on the upper range of PR170Z0. How they would perform in the real world is still questionable.
ps. Audiom7k listed above is an obsolete Focal unit with 7" kevlar cone. I've been using it for 12 years. Overall it is a good midrange. However I found it's a little bit muddy around 200Hz mated with Oris 150 horn....
Here are some candidates:
Driver``````BL(tm)````Mms(g)```BL/Mms (ms^-2.A^-1)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
10ND610````` 20.3`````30``````676.67
8M400```````12.2 `````14``````871.43
8PE21```````16.6``````18 `````922.22
AN Super8```11.023```11.54`````955.2
FE206ESR````10.2`````12.3`````829.27
PR170Z0`````10.0`````6.2`````1612.9
Audiom7k`````8.94````7.3`````1224.66
As can be seen, strong magnets do help a lot. However, bigger cones are considerably heavier than the smaller ones. They pull the numbers down quite a lot.
So, it seems the cone area (or the whole loading) of the driver should be considered? But how? Taking a further product with cone area?
From the datasheets, FR of 10ND610 & 8M400 are not attactive at all. Usable range looks so narrow. And there's a huge bump on the upper range of PR170Z0. How they would perform in the real world is still questionable.
ps. Audiom7k listed above is an obsolete Focal unit with 7" kevlar cone. I've been using it for 12 years. Overall it is a good midrange. However I found it's a little bit muddy around 200Hz mated with Oris 150 horn....
I suspect that the PHY-HP H 21 LB 15 SAG is exactly the midrange driver Lynn is looking for. Its not cheap though. 
Some subjective comments can be read here (last 3rd of page):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ocellia/ocellia_5.html
Some subjective comments can be read here (last 3rd of page):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ocellia/ocellia_5.html
I was just wondering if PHY-HP's were present at RMAF. H21LB SAG sure looks good, the same for the H30 (the 12" one), however I don't know if the power handling is good enough (25W) . I guess that in the case of these exotic drivers it's better to listen them first and then buy them.
For a less exotic variation, two audax PR170M0 in an array should yeld great results. I've heard only good things about these mids.
Mr. Olson, what do you think about the horizontal placement of the midrange drivers in magnetar's sistem. I remember some pages ago, at the begining of the thread, you excluded an array of 8" drivers due to lobbing problems. And did you had the chance to evaluate some 18sound mids?
Oh, and by the way, does anyone knows why the TAD 1102 is out of production or if there will be a replacement for it? I think it is a great midrange unit, probably on of the best suited for this kind of aplication we are discussing here. The spl is a little on the down side... I think we can't have them all after all