Alpair 7.3 notch filter - diyAudio
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Old 9th February 2014, 06:43 PM   #1
HAL2005 is offline HAL2005  Germany
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Default Alpair 7.3 notch filter

Hello lucky listeners!

finally i got my AP7.3 in a TQWT enclosure (Tuby from spectrumaudio.de).
I am completely impressed by the bass response and the room the speakers create with my restored Quad 303.

I have 3 questions:
- They sell it with a (selectable) RLC notch filter for 2-3kHz. I havent seen somebody using a correction for the AP7.3. Beside personal listening taste: Does someone experiment with filter for the AP7.3 ?

- After the first 50h and many comparisons i realized an increase between 10 an 14 kHz. On the one side this supports the extrem accurate response.
One the other hand this peak gives it a bit thin and metallic character when people are talking like in radio. People get always a very loud and metallic "S".
Does this effect decrease after a while? Did someone make the same experience?

Thank you guys...
HAL
 
Old 9th February 2014, 07:17 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL2005 View Post
... in a TQWT enclosure (Tuby from spectrumaudio.de)...
One the other hand this peak gives it a bit thin and metallic character when people are talking like in radio.
I would suggest that the voice character is from the ill-matched enclosure, not the driver.

Also 50 hrs is not near enuff break-in time, i can't say for sure, i've never listened to a pair with less than 200 hr of initial break-in.

If you are measuring,make sure you also measure off-axis, on-axis measures are not very useful unless accompanied by off-axis measures.

dave
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Old 10th February 2014, 09:22 AM   #3
HAL2005 is offline HAL2005  Germany
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The enclosure and the voices are not the problem. I only refer to the peaks in high frequencies >10kHz which you can see in the official frequency diagram.
I will let them run and listen to it after 100h+.
It seems to me that the resonances are getting better.
 
Old 10th February 2014, 01:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL2005 View Post
The enclosure and the voices are not the problem. I only refer to the peaks in high frequencies >10kHz which you can see in the official frequency diagram.
I will let them run and listen to it after 100h+.
It seems to me that the resonances are getting better.
Hello Hal,
Please read this thread:

OPERATION INFO: Flattening Markaudio driver response

Check your source, amplification and cables, as the Alpair 7 Gen.3 is an ultra micro-resonance sensitive driver. The thin metallic sound isn't the down to the driver, it has a reputation for emitting a sweet wide response.

Thanks
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 10th February 2014 at 01:38 PM.
 
Old 10th February 2014, 08:23 PM   #5
HAL2005 is offline HAL2005  Germany
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I have read a lot of Marks speakers, but as a german guy i didn't see the most important statement of Mark
Thank you very much. That was the point!

Instead of "listening" to what experienced developers have created I used the recommended notch filter which ruined the character of the 7-3s. Voices were pale without fundament and secondly the notch filter emphasized the rich high tones like a loudness effect.
Now everything is fine
Voices are real and putting them a few degrees out of focus dampens the high frequencies without loosing the stage.
Thanx Mark. You made my day!
 
Old 10th February 2014, 10:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL2005 View Post
I have read a lot of Marks speakers, but as a german guy i didn't see the most important statement of Mark
Thank you very much. That was the point!

Instead of "listening" to what experienced developers have created, I used the recommended notch filter which ruined the character of the 7-3s. Voices were pale without fundament and secondly the notch filter emphasized the rich high tones like a loudness effect.
Now everything is fine
Voices are real and putting them a few degrees out of focus dampens the high frequencies without loosing the stage.
Thanx Mark. You made my day!
Hello HAL, Guys,

Glad to help. Its important to note that most full-range drivers aren't designed to be controlled by passive filtering.

I have no details of the filter that was recommended to you. I have the feeling it comes from someone who doesn't understand the design and function of an Alpair driver. Feel free to email me its details and any of its website links: support@markaudio.com (thanks)

Enjoy your project!
Thanks
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 10th February 2014 at 10:38 PM.
 
Old 11th February 2014, 12:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL2005 View Post
Voices are real and putting them a few degrees out of focus dampens the high frequencies without loosing the stage.
This is also how I set up my A7.3s. I find they sound quite good on any axis, but do prefere them toed out just a few degrees. This is something that I actually quite like about full range drivers. The ability to tailor the top end by merely re-adjusting the position of the speakers.

I've got a set of rather expensive bookshelves built by a big, respected canadian brand at home here and I wish I could simply toe them out a few degrees to tame the rather hot tweeters.
 
Old 17th February 2014, 08:31 PM   #8
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Hello HAL,
Many thanks for you help. I've sent a reply.

For beginners or those new to using full range drivers, here's the advice I'm currently circulating to the EU. Hoping those users with good English will translate into other EU languages and post on European diyaudio forums, many thanks:

The important message for users of Markaudio drivers (and similar designs) is to operate them without any filters. Most users will find it easy to adjust the axis of the boxes to get the sound they like. Markaudio drivers have very wide dispersion patten, the sound is spread very wide. Central stereo image is also wide so positioning the boxes by a little degree off-axis is normal for many users.

For a few users who have special circumstances, some filtering is needed for their purpose. They may have some sound reflection in their room that makes the highs sound too bright, or have a bright sounding amplifier, or a particular preference for old style music that they like played with less high range. But it is still best to try off-axis setting first or adjusting amplifier if its a tube type before adding filters to the drivers. Filtering components can add unwanted changes to the signal (noises) feeding the drivers. Most low mass Full-Range drivers are very signal sensitive, filtering can negatively effect their performance. So if a filter is applied, its important to experiment with various high quality components to see what works best.

Help from experienced Diyer's is welcomed to correct the errors of some users who mis-read the rising frequency data of Full-range drivers. They don’t understand the design function of Markaudio and similar Full-Range driver designs and make the error of applying a filter before trying to operate the loudspeaker with an adjusted on-off axis position.


Thanks
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 17th February 2014 at 08:48 PM.
 
Old 22nd March 2014, 12:54 AM   #9
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For the last few years I have been head over heels for my CSS FR125SR drivers (with Dave's magic dots on) in a 'spiral horn' floorstanding cabinet. As a purist music only system with my homemade dac and amp (Buffalo & Charlize with Paul Hynes regs and BG's galore) this has made the most entrancing sounds I could imagine in a smallish living room.

Recently moved house and also moved to wanting to start playing TV and movies through those speakers. Finding the CSS drivers less clear on dialogue than I'd like, I picked up a couple of Alpair 7.3's secondhand. In those same cabinets I definitely find them clearer than than the modded CSS drivers and can follow dialogue at lower volumes (useful as my 4-yr old sleeps above the living room). But I do sometimes find the slightly elevated high frequencies less pleasing than the flatter response of the FR125SR. I get that similar issue with "S" sounds sometimes during dialogue and occasionally music seems less natural/involving because of it. Because of the shape of the living room people often have to sit outside the sweet spot, so angling the speakers outward is a less than ideal solution.

Having said the above, this evening my wife and I watched the film Dazed and Confused through them and did find the soundtrack sounded superb. So I definitely want to keep these drivers around in some capacity. But in view of what Dave says above, can an ill-matched enclosure cause such a problem with those high frequencies? I took care with the original cabinet design to minimize reflection of sound waves back through the cone and have used bracing. The cabinets sounded wonderful with the CSS drivers. I have no filters on the Alpairs.

So speaking personally, I really do like the A7.3's but I do think I would like them a lot more if they had a flatter frequency response higher up. Just wanted to share that / fish for insight from the more knowledgeable guys here...
 
Old 22nd March 2014, 03:05 AM   #10
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Does the HT rig include something along the lines of Audyssey et al? I believe those will include some perfunctory digital EQ. In my own case (A7.2s in the front row / Denon AVR1610 so equipped) I don't detect any consistent issues with overall tonal balance - although certainly wider variations in quality of program material than one would expect with strict adherence to legibility target in audio engineering.

Of course with extensive HF hearing deterioration and the oft accompanying 24/7/365 tinitus, I'm quite likely not hearing things that could be measurably "wrong" or obvious to younger/more acute ear/brains. But IIWII

For "flatter/ smoother" response up top, there's always the 10P - and at some point soon, perhaps an intermediate sized paper.

Mostly wishful thinking that last part - Mark's plans do often pivot in surprising driections.
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Last edited by chrisb; 22nd March 2014 at 03:09 AM.
 

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