Hello All,
I hope everyone is having a pleasant day. I'm building a new system. New power amp, new dac/preamp, new transport, new speakers, and new interconnects, and power cords. My question is, I have a very old TICE power conditioner. Its was I think one of ones they made when power conditioners were new to audio. I'm sure it's filters, and surge protectors. I think I also have an isolation transformer some were. I read that surge protectors were a no, no. That they made the system sound bad. So should I use the Tice, or use the isolation transformer, and a power strip with no surge protection. I'm not sure I want to go without surge protection. What do you all think? Thank you all very much.
I hope everyone is having a pleasant day. I'm building a new system. New power amp, new dac/preamp, new transport, new speakers, and new interconnects, and power cords. My question is, I have a very old TICE power conditioner. Its was I think one of ones they made when power conditioners were new to audio. I'm sure it's filters, and surge protectors. I think I also have an isolation transformer some were. I read that surge protectors were a no, no. That they made the system sound bad. So should I use the Tice, or use the isolation transformer, and a power strip with no surge protection. I'm not sure I want to go without surge protection. What do you all think? Thank you all very much.
Surge is personal choice. I just unplug my stuff when gone, or in a thunderstorm lightening actually almost never strikes in town where I live, might be the inversion).
The answer to conditioning however is hell yes. But I'm not sure what's in a Tice unit.
I build them, and can tell you about many of them. There's good, bad, subjective, and better for the money catagories.
There's also a lot of lies. There's people that say if your PSU in your amp has a lot of capacitance than its higher value is more affective than a power conditioner that uses less. That's total utter ********. It doesn't work that way. It's a nice thought but it only takes one listen to know it's not in the slightest bit true. If it were no one would have ever sold thousands of units from say Blue Circle or Audience.
The worst part is you get what you pay for in terms of quality. There's good filters with poor connection/bonding, and good connection/bonding with poor filtering for somewhat affordably priced units. But anything that has both is going to cost $3k+ . Under that there's some good units usually with limited sockets, but still separate themselves in quality from others (especially the commercial variety of garbage).
A good one will only improve your sound. It should wow you and remove levels of fatigue. If not either you spent to little or got the wrong one.
The answer to conditioning however is hell yes. But I'm not sure what's in a Tice unit.
I build them, and can tell you about many of them. There's good, bad, subjective, and better for the money catagories.
There's also a lot of lies. There's people that say if your PSU in your amp has a lot of capacitance than its higher value is more affective than a power conditioner that uses less. That's total utter ********. It doesn't work that way. It's a nice thought but it only takes one listen to know it's not in the slightest bit true. If it were no one would have ever sold thousands of units from say Blue Circle or Audience.
The worst part is you get what you pay for in terms of quality. There's good filters with poor connection/bonding, and good connection/bonding with poor filtering for somewhat affordably priced units. But anything that has both is going to cost $3k+ . Under that there's some good units usually with limited sockets, but still separate themselves in quality from others (especially the commercial variety of garbage).
A good one will only improve your sound. It should wow you and remove levels of fatigue. If not either you spent to little or got the wrong one.
As professional electrician I would say that protective measures it should be taken only if there is a recorded history of electrical anomalies.
Power conditioner is used to protect medical grade equipment which are running software tasks.
Sound systems does not need special Mains filtering, except if below your home there is a garage using high powered tools or running lots of electric motors (production facility).
Even surge protection is required only if you live over a hill, or in a spot in the country side which has very high trees.
Generally speaking, sound playback is not demanding regarding AC mains filtering compared with an recording studio.
Power conditioner is used to protect medical grade equipment which are running software tasks.
Sound systems does not need special Mains filtering, except if below your home there is a garage using high powered tools or running lots of electric motors (production facility).
Even surge protection is required only if you live over a hill, or in a spot in the country side which has very high trees.
Generally speaking, sound playback is not demanding regarding AC mains filtering compared with an recording studio.
Sorry but you're wrong. Power conditioners filter not only incoming noise, but shared noise among your equipment. If you have any non-torodial transformers that aren't like 5 inches and hand built, or any SMPS power supplies, you've probably got lotsa noise; there's more sources of noise, hell it's in the air! A 6moons article found that starting at 4% noise and adding a power conditioner was step that will never be reverted.
You're thinking like an electrician, if you hear things in your stereo either something is wired wrong or filtration would be advisable. The reality is you basically can't identify audible "noises" that a good conditioner removes. First because it may not be distinct, but actually the majority of what noise does isn't introducing artifacts into the music, but rather changing the shape of the music itself. Now on any average oscilloscope this'll look like almost nothing... But on the ears we're talking listen for a half hour or 4 hours potential.
Sure "need" is subjective, but I think everyone "needs" something that allows them to more extensively listen while achieving a higher emotional state at the same time.
Computers are surprisingly noisy environments that still work well. In fact people go to great lengths to reduce the noise in PC builds for audio servers on this forum. The point at which computers have problems is when transmitting information over distances, because induction begins to trample the viability; hence the on going work to make higher grade Cat wire, pumping up frequency without it becoming a mess. Hospitals are fighting noise, but I don't think it has much to do with the software; not so much as the measuring interfaces that use high frequencies that would be vulnerable to outside noise in the same frequencies.
Sound recording can benefit from power conditioning - but it's largely rejected by studio guys - however it is more important for the end user because fatigue happens more in the playback. That's true at the studio too, their amps and DACs can add fatigue, but the recording can be decent. If you've got 1s and 0s, a large amount of fatigue will be everything from translation to AC to amplifaction and out the speakers. Think about it, even an MP3 can sound pleasant even though it's boring; but even DSD to MP3 can get on your ears like a cheese grater.
You're thinking like an electrician, if you hear things in your stereo either something is wired wrong or filtration would be advisable. The reality is you basically can't identify audible "noises" that a good conditioner removes. First because it may not be distinct, but actually the majority of what noise does isn't introducing artifacts into the music, but rather changing the shape of the music itself. Now on any average oscilloscope this'll look like almost nothing... But on the ears we're talking listen for a half hour or 4 hours potential.
Sure "need" is subjective, but I think everyone "needs" something that allows them to more extensively listen while achieving a higher emotional state at the same time.
Computers are surprisingly noisy environments that still work well. In fact people go to great lengths to reduce the noise in PC builds for audio servers on this forum. The point at which computers have problems is when transmitting information over distances, because induction begins to trample the viability; hence the on going work to make higher grade Cat wire, pumping up frequency without it becoming a mess. Hospitals are fighting noise, but I don't think it has much to do with the software; not so much as the measuring interfaces that use high frequencies that would be vulnerable to outside noise in the same frequencies.
Sound recording can benefit from power conditioning - but it's largely rejected by studio guys - however it is more important for the end user because fatigue happens more in the playback. That's true at the studio too, their amps and DACs can add fatigue, but the recording can be decent. If you've got 1s and 0s, a large amount of fatigue will be everything from translation to AC to amplifaction and out the speakers. Think about it, even an MP3 can sound pleasant even though it's boring; but even DSD to MP3 can get on your ears like a cheese grater.
Rick, how have you tested that?
I've found that improperly sized CMC's will limit dynamics. But when sized to twice or more the current potential the differences haven't been detectable. If anything there was an improvement in dynamics from better filtration. BUT I'd be very interested to know of any possible issues. Knowing what equipment in particular might reveal this would be nice.
Inductance resistance, reactance, is current limiting yes. But at what point does it have an affect if there is an impressive abundance? I haven't found the issue except when approach the actual limit of an inductor.
On the other hand I've found all forms of ferrite to be a hindrance that's so obvious that there is no reason to even define whether or not it's dynamics etc; it just sounds like poo.
I've found that improperly sized CMC's will limit dynamics. But when sized to twice or more the current potential the differences haven't been detectable. If anything there was an improvement in dynamics from better filtration. BUT I'd be very interested to know of any possible issues. Knowing what equipment in particular might reveal this would be nice.
Inductance resistance, reactance, is current limiting yes. But at what point does it have an affect if there is an impressive abundance? I haven't found the issue except when approach the actual limit of an inductor.
On the other hand I've found all forms of ferrite to be a hindrance that's so obvious that there is no reason to even define whether or not it's dynamics etc; it just sounds like poo.
Destroyer,
Thanks. The Tice unit is a very early one. I think it is one of the first units out. It was advertised as having magical treated wire ( pretty sure it's cryo'd ) and it has a double power cord, A solid copper, and a stranded copper, with a box attached, that you can switch from a solid to stranded, or both at once. This is what made a believer out of me that AC power cords can make a difference. You could hear changes in the sound, when you switched from one to another. I'm sure it's not the best. If I remember, I paid I think about $400.00 for it about 22 years ago or so. So it's a very early unit and it wasn't expensive, So I don't think it's the best, and I don't think I can afford a new good one. That's why I'm building my system, and it's fun, and I get what I want. So I guess I'll try it with, with out, with transformer, and with out, and decide what sounds best. Unless there are some plans or schematic around for a good DIY conditioner. Well thanks for the info.
Tony G
I would never buy or use equipment with such built in troublesome design.
My Kenwood KA7020 is using two non-torodial transformers but fully shielded.
Therefore we cannot add any rule in favor of a power conditioner, due one or a few equipment which comes with bad design.
Because I am an electrician living in both worlds (electrical - electronics) the range of frequencies that electrical filtering come to minimize is in the range of 43-60Hz.
Which is a humming that human ear can not distinguish except if it got amplified enough.
Attachments
It's not radiation of transformers that goes back onto line, it's the common mode noise generated when a transformer is small and there isn't enough insulation to prevent the capacitance that builds. There's more ways your stuff puts out noise. I was just giving an example of a size that's not likely too. Yours probably do not at sufficient size and insulation.
This isn't flawed equipment. In fact if you test anything by itself it'll look great. You can spend $10,000 on a DAC that can still make common mode noise.
You're basing your judgements on very simple theory. This is like how groundingin a house is done, as the most basic level it's safe and works well but it's not low noise necessarily at all.
We aren't in this game for merely satisfactory, we want damn good sound.
Equipment as it's made now and in the past may have some filtration on the DC side, but for reasons perhaps hard to depict it does almost nothing compared to AC filtration.
Like my example before, why would 100,000uf in a large PSU not filter so much more significantly than say the relative 1.1uf (I believe) found on Audience Adept units? We know that it improves sound and there isn't any refutable information otherwise! They do use a CMC too, but for example people can hear switching those caps to Teflon version. Crazy? Ya I guess, but once you got it good you can't go back.
This is a new ball game for many non-believers. Try you ear, not the limit of your imagination.
This isn't flawed equipment. In fact if you test anything by itself it'll look great. You can spend $10,000 on a DAC that can still make common mode noise.
You're basing your judgements on very simple theory. This is like how groundingin a house is done, as the most basic level it's safe and works well but it's not low noise necessarily at all.
We aren't in this game for merely satisfactory, we want damn good sound.
Equipment as it's made now and in the past may have some filtration on the DC side, but for reasons perhaps hard to depict it does almost nothing compared to AC filtration.
Like my example before, why would 100,000uf in a large PSU not filter so much more significantly than say the relative 1.1uf (I believe) found on Audience Adept units? We know that it improves sound and there isn't any refutable information otherwise! They do use a CMC too, but for example people can hear switching those caps to Teflon version. Crazy? Ya I guess, but once you got it good you can't go back.
This is a new ball game for many non-believers. Try you ear, not the limit of your imagination.
Well I am well aware that in a diyaudio forum, it is most likely to meet people who are insisting that sound products need further improvements so to perform better.
From the other hand all high-end equipment sold at 90s and after, are build and designed by the use of computers and robots regarding PCB assembly.
Therefore the person who considers that his own interference is capable for improving the good in order to become perfect, he must have some true facts at hand so to prove it.
And do not get me wrong due my text, that is some sort of personal attack.
I have nothing to prove within Internet, to no one else than to me and to my own customers.
Regarding electricity, grounding, power quality, all are measurable factors due proper instruments.
It is supposed that an end customer is just responsible to connect just two cables for the speakers and set the speakers correctly in space so to feel the beauty of sound.
But here we have some parameters that differ from country to country, when all buildings in Greece are made by concrete and metal surrounding structures, you may say that they are somehow better shielded in comparison with a house made by wood.
But as I said and above, everything is measured by instruments today, if for example your home is next to an Air force-base, you should expect that radio interference will be part of your life.
The solution it would be to relocate and not to use any line normalizers.
While you have antennas in the system itself, you can attenuate the noise from your 50' romex antennas. Most people don't move just for stereo, and in the USA there's laws about transmission (air) intential or not.
I don't understand your reference to computer made stuff. It's not like we use AI to design for us! Basically everything is made in regards to cost; and not all engineers have ears for sound. One guy says all capacitors are the same, another says writes descriptions for everyone he tries including second opinions from people not aware a swap was made.
Often high end gear is point to point as well, btw.
But by all means, please try to audition a conditioner some time.
To the OP, the Rice may be something like the early Furmans; they work but are vastly out classed by units today that don't have the draw backs that have made many people prefer not to use one.
I don't understand your reference to computer made stuff. It's not like we use AI to design for us! Basically everything is made in regards to cost; and not all engineers have ears for sound. One guy says all capacitors are the same, another says writes descriptions for everyone he tries including second opinions from people not aware a swap was made.
Often high end gear is point to point as well, btw.
But by all means, please try to audition a conditioner some time.
To the OP, the Rice may be something like the early Furmans; they work but are vastly out classed by units today that don't have the draw backs that have made many people prefer not to use one.
I have one near me which collecting dust.
EVS 2KVA AC mains voltage regulator with thyristor ( inside view ) by STB Greece
This ultra expensive to build equipment it was replaced by a modern APC UPS and it came to me as a gift from my customer.
Now days that dirty solar power and wind power gets mixed in the grid ( and I am calling it as dirty because it is produced by inverters which do not have the best reputation for power quality) there is some pollution to mains, but even so the mix is retained to 30% energy coming from renewable sources and 70% from the power station, so the end user to not facing any problems.
Recently I did some testing to my new differential probe, and in my surprise the power coming from my own UPS were far cleaner than the Mains in the grid.
APC Smart-UPS SUA1000XL | Amazing quality as inverter
Therefore by the use of my Oscilloscope I can verify with out using my ears, if any AC line filter or conditioner has anything positive to offer.
Therefore by the use of my Oscilloscope I can verify with out using my ears, if any AC line filter or conditioner has anything positive to offer.
You might be surprised, very surprised.
Jim Brown writes:
POWER CONDITIONING
Power conditioning is a rather broad term, describing processes to correct one of more
of the problems noted above. In it’s broadest meaning, it connotes voltage regulation
to correct for the line voltage being higher or lower than normal, surge suppression to
eliminate short term faults that can damage equipment, and bandpass filtering to reduce
noise. Some may even attempt to reduce harmonic currents. Unfortunately, much
of the equipment sold in the name of power conditioning does more to relieve purchasers
of their money than to improve power quality.
My underlining.
POWER CONDITIONING
Power conditioning is a rather broad term, describing processes to correct one of more
of the problems noted above. In it’s broadest meaning, it connotes voltage regulation
to correct for the line voltage being higher or lower than normal, surge suppression to
eliminate short term faults that can damage equipment, and bandpass filtering to reduce
noise. Some may even attempt to reduce harmonic currents. Unfortunately, much
of the equipment sold in the name of power conditioning does more to relieve purchasers
of their money than to improve power quality.
My underlining.
"Destroyer OS" get a battery powered audio recorder (a line powered recorder or O-scope changes the playing field). Make some recordings of test tones and quite spots using different conditioner set-ups. Keep close track of the recording and playback levels. Then use an audio editing program to look at the noise levels.
What you may be enjoying is more background noise.
What you may be enjoying is more background noise.
It would be unusual for you to have a genuine isolation transformer large enough to run a power amplifier. These are quite expensive. It might be nice to use with a preamp, though.
While I do enjoy tape noise, I don't think that this is the answer. There tends to be an utter lack of noise between tracks and when the "beat" drops. I have a friend who makes electronic music and he doesn't notice on his setup that the "beat drop" is disturbing and makes it hard to listen too. On his side he probably thinks he has white noise or something. I know other people that add it on purpose. Well, room noise they add often.
I don't think that's true in the way I'm describing. There's dropping a beat and ending a song. If there's some undiscript "white noise" there's an anticipation of music. People that make YouTube video voice over add forms of noise all the time as regular production.
The Beastie Boys have done beat-drops for 20 years, and they don't make you think the song ended; they get you ready with anticipation and surprise you.
Anyways, that's pretty off topic. On topic, recorded purposeful noise is much more pleasant to hear since we choose what we like.
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