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Old 1st November 2012, 08:53 AM   #51
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
I'm using the term "conventional" in the sense that the scientist typically believes he can always investigate a situation without impacting the outcome by his presence.
I would like to find whoever was your science teacher in school and beat him about the head and shoulders for filling your head with stuff like this.
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
...if the "scientist" doesn't believe it's possible to get the result, then he won't!
I see no evidence in that report that the experimenters had such preconceived beliefs, and even if they did, in the long term, science is very good at eliminating any bias due to expectations.
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Old 1st November 2012, 10:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by sofaspud View Post
Is that another way of saying it's pure chance?
No, what many of them will say it comes down the "importance" of what is being picked up, for the individual at an emotional level. Where much of the paranormal research gets it "wrong" is that the "testing" is mindnumbingly boring, excrutiatingly tedious for the participants, hundreds, thousands of instances of distinguishing or predicting some meaningless object or event from another meaningless one, so that it is statistically valid. You might as well attempt to ascertain whether listening to music is beneficial to humans, by subjecting them to hours and hours, days and days of the most mundane, repetitive note twaddling ...

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Old 1st November 2012, 10:28 AM   #54
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I can't imagine even the least interested person not realizing that it is the "picked up" not the "what" as being of world event significance.
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Old 1st November 2012, 10:40 AM   #55
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I would like to find whoever was your science teacher in school and beat him about the head and shoulders for filling your head with stuff like this.
Meaning that?

a) A scientist is always smart enough to understand exactly what must be done so that setup of the experiment never interferes with the accuracy of the results,
or
b) A scientist always approaches every experiment completely impartially, never has preconceived ideas of what the results should be, so never uses procedures that may influence the possible outcomes to fall in a particular direction,
or
c) A scientist always has a deeper understanding of the fundamental processes that underlie some area of research, so that the experiment never confuses elements of the situation that are quite orthogonal, is always focused on, and only on, precisely the aspect that needs to be understood more exactly.

Any or all of the above are probably true, I must admit ...

One course that quite impressed me at the time was an explanation of the process of a "simple" measuring of black body radiation, I think that was the essence of it. The lectures wore on, elaborating the exquisitely complex methodology and techniques that had to be used to ensure that the result was meaningful, that the number, or numbers, derived at the end had any significance. If just one tiny detail of the experiment was flawed then the whole exercise was for nought ...

Now, I'm not quite sure why that thought came to mind ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 1st November 2012 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 1st November 2012, 10:42 AM   #56
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d) None of the above.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:44 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42
But mimicing, using trickery, what someone has genuinely done is not demonstrating the genuine article can't be the real deal,
That is a good point which is often overlooked. The fact that someone can come up with a plausible explanation does not prove it is the correct one, unless all other explanations have been a priori prohibited by (unstated) assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvarkash10
BTW, there is no alternative to "conventional" science (bar ignorance) so the adjective is superfluous
That could be interpreted as a religious statement and therefore against forum rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryo
It's the 21st Century, I repeat 21st Century, there are no psychic powers, no ghosts, no telekenesis, no Gods, no afterlife. Accept it, and move on.
Now we get a bold assertion of atheism.

I firmly believe in the existence of phenomena which some might call paranormal or supernatural. All monotheists do, although they differ on the extent to which these things still happen today. I see no conflict between this and the pursuit of science; I am a physicist. Two groups can happily do science: people who don't believe in a God, and people who believe that their God won't normally fiddle with their experiments.

The apparent failure of the psychics in the experiment mentioned could arise from two things:
1. they don't have paranormal powers,
2. they do have paranormal powers but the source, whatever it is, did not want to play ball with the scientists.
I suspect explanation 1 is true in this case, but I do not discount 2 as being impossible.

The connection with audio is that explanation 2 is irrelevant there, so it must be 1. Then we find the same excuses being trotted out. I don't think even the wildest tweaker would claim that his crystals/cones/cables/whatever improve the sound by supernatural means.

I won't try the Mods patience any further!
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:59 AM   #58
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Thanks DF96. No more religious discussion please.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:13 PM   #59
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Phew...thanks WM, I was worried I'd have to declare a "Citizen's Moderation". Now back to the discussion of all things paranormal that are not supernatural.
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:03 PM   #60
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by kevinahcc20 View Post
Now back to the discussion of all things paranormal that are not supernatural.
ER.... if it exists then it must be natural...where does super (or beyond/more than) come in?

Regards
M. Gregg
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