Ok, Ask What Seems a Dumb Question....
In my experience best sound is achieved by source direct into power amplifier using the level controls on the said power amplifier.
Changing sources of course involves changing cables connections.
With appropriate (standard) source level and amplifier sensitivity typically no source gain is required and with correct source mastering level max output level can be achieved without overdrive.
With a typical preamp and volume control, the typical 12 o'clock (11 -1 o'clock) position is adequate and anything past that causes system overdrive.
My systems go to 10 at 5 o'clock, and 11 is not desirable.
Eric.
Yeah, yeah, ok, I should know better than to ask such a question around here.....
In my experience best sound is achieved by source direct into power amplifier using the level controls on the said power amplifier.
Changing sources of course involves changing cables connections.
With appropriate (standard) source level and amplifier sensitivity typically no source gain is required and with correct source mastering level max output level can be achieved without overdrive.
With a typical preamp and volume control, the typical 12 o'clock (11 -1 o'clock) position is adequate and anything past that causes system overdrive.
My systems go to 10 at 5 o'clock, and 11 is not desirable.
Eric.
Distraction in the kitchen, followed by bad editing.
Do you think Chez Panisse can cook haggis? Would they? For a price you bet your sweet op amp they would. So what would be their price?
"What Does A Preamp Really Do....?"
More to the point, is there such a thing as a passive preamplifier since it doesn't preamplify anything. Is passive preamplifier an oxymoron, a self contradiction like deliberate speed? All those years ago, who would have ever thought that people would one day pay $2000 for a two gang audio taper potentiometer, a two gang rotary switch, a dozen gold plated RCA jacks and a small sheet metal box to put it in? Clearly I went into the wrong business. Live and learn. I must admit though, from the photos of it I saw it had some really nice looking allen type sheet metal screws holding the enclosure together. Kinda like audio haggis in a gift box tied with ribbons and a bow I think.
You talking about pro amps?
Eliminating the usual input switching certainly simplifies things a bit.
I once had a notion of doing a system with just one set of inputs on the front panel. Multiple sources would be handled in much the same way as the old telephone switchboards.
Which is why "passive" preamps came into vogue back in the 80's.
se
@Sound(?)minded. (Does this name indicate that you think about sound or that you claim to be "sound of mind"???
Many here claim accuracy to be a paramount virtue so you will understand that I am obliged to point out that I live in Scotland, whereas I come from Ireland, rather than allow you to publish yet more unfounded "fact". A fact which is made clear by my choice of National Flag below my avatar. (Location indicates where one lives, not where one comes from).
When at school - in England - my first report for French (language) was that my ability was then below any known standard. I am truly pleased that your version of French has established a standard which lifts mine from that lowest tier!!
As for food I have to say that our (now) local Scottish Borders Beef is acknowledged to be the best in the world and also that a friend of mine is one of the foremost beef breeders having won virtually every available prize for his beasts. The secret is of course in the grass which they eat here .....which is not the prepared food (mainly barley-based) on which most American beef is produced!
Haggis is not considered to be a U.K. gourmet choice - although it has an 'interest' of it's own - as it is a by product of sheep killed for mutton or as lamb....the unmentionable parts which the richer man would not eat....ground up, spiced, and bulked out with barley - just like your Amerian beef - and then contained in the sac of the beast. It is traditional "poor man's fare". The tradition is that whisky is poured on it and drunk with it, no doubt to disguise the taste back in pre-refrigeration days.
Many here claim accuracy to be a paramount virtue so you will understand that I am obliged to point out that I live in Scotland, whereas I come from Ireland, rather than allow you to publish yet more unfounded "fact".
A fact which is made clear by my choice of National Flag below my avatar. (Location indicates where one lives, not where one comes from).When at school - in England - my first report for French (language) was that my ability was then below any known standard. I am truly pleased that your version of French has established a standard which lifts mine from that lowest tier!!
As for food I have to say that our (now) local Scottish Borders Beef is acknowledged to be the best in the world and also that a friend of mine is one of the foremost beef breeders having won virtually every available prize for his beasts. The secret is of course in the grass which they eat here .....which is not the prepared food (mainly barley-based) on which most American beef is produced!
Haggis is not considered to be a U.K. gourmet choice - although it has an 'interest' of it's own - as it is a by product of sheep killed for mutton or as lamb....the unmentionable parts which the richer man would not eat....ground up, spiced, and bulked out with barley - just like your Amerian beef - and then contained in the sac of the beast. It is traditional "poor man's fare". The tradition is that whisky is poured on it and drunk with it, no doubt to disguise the taste back in pre-refrigeration days.
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Haha, in my car (old Jap station wagon) I have a 15" in a plastic PA cabinet and 8" two ways with line level crossover and two amplifiers - all hanging off a 50k linear pot (cost me a buck fifty) and this system seriously kicks butt big time.
Of course there are tweaks to get it sounding right and I get comments on how big and how clear it sounds.
The beauty of this arrangement is that 5 o'clock is max level without distortion.
Eric.
Yes, but not neccesarily...most power amps are similar sensitivity...sort of.
Yes, simplifies the signal path, just means you have to get off your date to change to tv sound when the music session is over.
Been there done that...sound quality ++++, ergonomics ---- changing sources is no big deal - females and kids are not so enamored.I once had a notion of doing a system with just one set of inputs on the front panel. Multiple sources would be handled in much the same way as the old telephone switchboards.
Passive preamp was all the rage 8 years ago here IIRC.
Eric.
Many here claim accuracy to be a paramount virtue so you will understand that I am obliged to point out that I live in Scotland, whereas I come from Ireland, rather than allow you to publish yet more unfounded "fact".
When at school - in England - my first report for French (language) was that my ability was then below any known standard. I am truly pleased that your version of French has established a standard which lifts mine from that lowest tier!!
As for food I have to say that our (now) local Scottish Borders Beef is acknowledged to be the best in the world and also that a friend of mine is one of the foremost beef breeders having won virtually every available prize for his beasts. The secret is of course in the grass which they eat here .....which is not the prepared food (mainly barley-based) on which most American beef is produced!
Haggis is not considered to be a U.K. gourmet choice - although it has an 'interest' of it's own - as it is a by product of sheep killed for mutton or as lamb....the unmentionable parts which the richer man would not eat....ground up, spiced, and bulked out with barley - just like your Amerian beef - and then contained in the sac of the beast. It is traditional "poor man's fare". The tradition is that whisky is poured on it and drunk with it, no doubt to disguise the taste back in pre-refrigeration days.
I think you were referring to my posting.
My sincerest apologies for my misconception about which country you live in and which one you're from. You're from the country that broke away from England....mostly. You live in a country where it seems to me many people want to break away from England...mostly. And both then want to re-unite with them under the banner of the EU superstate. Ireland voted for Lisbon as I recall. At least the second time around they did
Now what's the difference between Irish whiskey and Scotch Whiskey (I know you spell it Whisky but I'm not fluent in English, just American ....and French ) In one they toast the barley and the other they roast it or something like that?"When at school - in England - my first report for French (language) was that my ability was then below any known standard. I am truly pleased that your version of French has established a standard which lifts mine from that lowest tier!!
"Mercy bo-chicken-coop!
I think that the Japanese would argue with you about who produces the best quality of beef in the world. They'd probably argue it's their Kobe beef. As I understand it they get massages with beer. This supposedly tenderizes the muscles. I think the question isn't who produces the best of anything but what can average people afford to eat based on their income and local prices. I understand Prince Charles eats lamb from specially raised sheep and eats special salmon from Scotland too but what good does that do the average person at the local market? Actually, I think most American beef cattle are raised on corn. We haven't had any hoof and mouth disease here for about a hundred years and except for one cow bought from stock in Canada a few years ago, no cases of mad cow disease in living memory either.
"Haggis is not considered to be a U.K. gourmet choice"
Isn't it the national dish of Scotland? Last time I checked the map, Scotland was still in the UK. It's advocates say it's an acquired taste. I don't think I'll try to acquire it myself. I might try deep fried Mars Bars through. They say it tastes much better than it sounds.
Philosophically, I disagree with you Soundmind. I am not here to promote mediocre audio equipment, and very cheap and affordable audio is usually just that. I am here to show how to IMPROVE audio equipment to make the very best possible.
You are pushing for VW's and Subaru's and I am pushing for Mercedes and Porsche.
In America, where I can tell you the year and model of most '50's American cars at a glance, and they STILL hold their value, I can safely say that most American cars produced in the '70's or '80's were not well designed or built, and the Japanese and Germans came in and 'cleaned our clock' so to speak.
This is hard, because many of my older relatives have deep resentment against Japan and Germany, since WW2, and they thought we should buy American.
Now why do I say all this? Because American MID-FI is much like American cars, of the late 20th century, built around superficial hype and actually poor performing, even at the price. Why is this so? Because people, like many here, think that there is NO difference between audio equipment, beyond features and external design. In fact, they INSIST on this being a fact, showing ABX tests, etc to 'prove' their point.
You many not be an engineer, yourself, Soundminded, but your father apparently instilled into you the 'engineer's creed' to make it cheaper and/or better. However, you have no gauge on what is 'better' so anything more expensive than 'cheaper' seems to you a waste of money. So be it, and you should avoid Bugatti's and Mercedes in future, as well, as it might give you 'indigestion' as to their cost and 'ridiculous' specs.
You are pushing for VW's and Subaru's and I am pushing for Mercedes and Porsche.
In America, where I can tell you the year and model of most '50's American cars at a glance, and they STILL hold their value, I can safely say that most American cars produced in the '70's or '80's were not well designed or built, and the Japanese and Germans came in and 'cleaned our clock' so to speak.
This is hard, because many of my older relatives have deep resentment against Japan and Germany, since WW2, and they thought we should buy American.
Now why do I say all this? Because American MID-FI is much like American cars, of the late 20th century, built around superficial hype and actually poor performing, even at the price. Why is this so? Because people, like many here, think that there is NO difference between audio equipment, beyond features and external design. In fact, they INSIST on this being a fact, showing ABX tests, etc to 'prove' their point.
You many not be an engineer, yourself, Soundminded, but your father apparently instilled into you the 'engineer's creed' to make it cheaper and/or better. However, you have no gauge on what is 'better' so anything more expensive than 'cheaper' seems to you a waste of money. So be it, and you should avoid Bugatti's and Mercedes in future, as well, as it might give you 'indigestion' as to their cost and 'ridiculous' specs.
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Don't know about Australian beef but I've eaten New Zealand "all natural" beef and I don't like its taste. It was cheap so I tried it. Fed it to my dog who had no problem with it.
Aussies have made some wines I really enjoyed. Of course we know Penfold's Grange (at least that's what it used to be called) is among the best wines in the world. It's also among the most expensive. Enjoyed 1989 Bin 389. Also 1982 Wynn's Coonawarra Estate. Nobody knew what it was here so it was a steal at only $12. Bought and drank as much of it as I could get my hands on. They never made another quite like it. Haven't tried the Riddoch Reserve though. IMO the best wine value in the world has to be New Zealand Marlborough Sauvignon Blancs. I'm not a fan of white wines but the best examples of this are excellent and have a very high QPR. Great match for Salmon. Although my cellar is stocked most with a lot of Bordeaux from the great vintages of the mid to late 1980s and 1990, I've become more partial to California Cabs. I know others who have come to the came conclusion.
Aussies have made some wines I really enjoyed. Of course we know Penfold's Grange (at least that's what it used to be called) is among the best wines in the world. It's also among the most expensive. Enjoyed 1989 Bin 389. Also 1982 Wynn's Coonawarra Estate. Nobody knew what it was here so it was a steal at only $12. Bought and drank as much of it as I could get my hands on. They never made another quite like it. Haven't tried the Riddoch Reserve though. IMO the best wine value in the world has to be New Zealand Marlborough Sauvignon Blancs. I'm not a fan of white wines but the best examples of this are excellent and have a very high QPR. Great match for Salmon. Although my cellar is stocked most with a lot of Bordeaux from the great vintages of the mid to late 1980s and 1990, I've become more partial to California Cabs. I know others who have come to the came conclusion.
About 15 years ago (1995) I met up with friends at a byo restaurant in Melbourne and this babe who had just inherited an uncles wine cellar turned up with a 1964 Grange Hermitage and dished it out.
Shame to say I drank my glass like it was cordial until I looked at the bottle and saw what it was.....pure nectar but alas only one bottle.
When I was in Denmark a few years ago the only decent steak I could buy was some kind of imported English fillet - not a patch on the Aussie stuff.
No experience with NZ beef, but their oysters and smoked eels are choice.
Eric.
Shame to say I drank my glass like it was cordial until I looked at the bottle and saw what it was.....pure nectar but alas only one bottle.
When I was in Denmark a few years ago the only decent steak I could buy was some kind of imported English fillet - not a patch on the Aussie stuff.
No experience with NZ beef, but their oysters and smoked eels are choice.
Eric.
That's interesting. I'm sure I read in New Scientist some years ago that mad cow disease was almost certainly present in the US herd, but that the farming industry over there was still living in denial. As a result of our feed bans and protection measures in the abattoirs, UK beef was probably safer to eat than US beef despite our much higher levels of herd infection. The biggest danger was always from the mechanically recovered meat mush which goes into cheap burgers and pies.
Fortunately for most of us, variant CJD seems to be harder to catch than we feared (although it can be confused with normal CJD - so you don't see it if you are not looking for it). I don't know what the current death total is, but I think it is dozens or hundreds, rather than the many many thousands which could have happened. There was even talk at one stage of about a third of the population getting it, based on genetics.
In Australia we have 'Bogans' - they drive chipped Bogan V8 cars, spend all day on work sites listening to Bogan music on Bogan portable work site radios and go home to Bogan AV systems - this is the great unwashed and I am sure common to all countries.
That said this is the mass market who don't actually care about fidelity - much more concern is loudness and price....eventually they grow up but don't expect their hearing acuity to change.
Eric.
Yes Scott,
If I still had my plots of 300B resonances and could post it then it would be clearer that the multiple metals, flexure modes, three dimensional structures and the incredible number of resonances make tubes' resonance effects non-linear to the max.
Keep in mind parts have to move in a direction that changes the amplification characteristics. If you look at the longitudinal (usually the strongest and easiest to excite) resonance modes in a typical tube's construction they probably won't have much effect. If you look at how a grid is often a porous tube and must wiggle sideways to really change things, then you understand why I call that buckling mode.
As mentioned electric circuit theory resonances and acoustic ones may share the basic math, but they are not identical.
The resonances I play with tend to need "triggers" to start. If you prefer to call that a delay to convergence or something else, it really doesn't matter.
The issue was "Is there something that is not shown by FFT?" I have presented that it may be an improvement over current practice to also have a high resolution time domain measurement. It may show something that went unobserved by other techniques. That is based on the work I do and issues that have been problems.
As to do we communicate, I write "Which sounds worse 5% 2nd order thd or 4,000hz hanging around for 10ms. (to -60db)?" You ask "Are you telling me that you have a solidstate amp that has 10ms of "reverb"." when my mind's image is of a filament/cathode "Singing" (or resonant at 4,000 hz long enough to create a false reverb.)
So I suspect the answer is barely. I know much of the "Information" on this site is opinion. I try to make clear what is my opinion versus what is measured.
ES
Pleased that you have a sense of humour soundminded!!!
However I believe that the traditional Kobe beef is massaged with milk....it is the 'American' (copy) kobe beef which gets beer!!
The American version is - I have been told by a Japanese foodie who has lived in the UK, Japan and the USA - that, although it is very different to the home-grown version, it is quite good. However he considers Scottish Borders beef to be the best of all - when cut and cooked by a top Japanese chef.
Now that we have had a break why not let JC continue with his thread on Blowtorch cooking preamp design?
However I believe that the traditional Kobe beef is massaged with milk....it is the 'American' (copy) kobe beef which gets beer!!
The American version is - I have been told by a Japanese foodie who has lived in the UK, Japan and the USA - that, although it is very different to the home-grown version, it is quite good. However he considers Scottish Borders beef to be the best of all - when cut and cooked by a top Japanese chef.
Now that we have had a break why not let JC continue with his thread on Blowtorch cooking preamp design?
There's been a lot of hyperbole in Europe about American food, virtually all of it lies. For example, it is claimed by Europeans that American meat is tainted with hormones and antibiotics, and that American produce is unsafe because of genetic engineering. Yet there is not one shred of evidence that American food is any more dangerous either short term or long term than anyone else's including Europe's. In fact, we believe that we have the safest, most varigated, and on the whole least expensive food supply in the world. Our foods may not always be to the liking of the taste preferences of many Europeans but considering how much of it we eat as evidenced by our obesiety rate, we enjoy it enough.
It was in Europe that entire national herds of livestock in major countries had to be completely destroyed not once but twice in the last 15 or 20 years because of disease. The reason for the hoof and mouth disease outbreak was attributed in the American media to filthy practices not allowed in the US and the outbreak of mad cow disease to the feeding of spinal chord and brain tissue of dead animals to other animals, also a practice not allowed in the US.
Europe is in a kind of trade war with the US. The reason in the agricultural sector is that Europe's small inefficient farms cannot compete against vast agribusiness farms common in the US. Personally I am content to leave things as they are. We don't import each other's meat and so we cannot blame each other for getting sick from each other's imported food. It was mot unfortunate that when the US offered large free shipments of grain to Zambia during a famine after a drought a few years ago, Europeans told the Zambian government that if they accepted American grain, they could not export to Europe again due to possible contamination by genetically modified crops which Europeans refer to as "Frankenfood." They did not however offer to replace the American donation with shipments of their own surplus grain.
Frites with ketchup for the American please, hold the mayo. Funny creating that "live" sound is your obsession but you're willing to trash others interest in cuisine (deeply rooted in many cultures) over steak and potatoes.
BTW Hafler kits? I have three and save for crumbled bias pots they have never failed. I find the "red/white" rca connectors that come with every CD player fine as IC's, Radio Shack has adaptors to any input. I cut the ends off of old extension cords for speaker cable, that makes sure they are burnt in.
The microphonic effect of vacuum tubes is well documented and not in the least surprising. Small changes in the dimensional relationships between the electrodes in a vacuum tube can have very significant effects on performance because of changes in the field strength of the region the space charge travels in and because of the relationship of the control grid to the space charge geometry. This can also be the result of signal induced vibrations within the tube itself. FFT will not necessarily show this up clearly because the excitation at any one frequency may not be sustained long enough to show up resonances especially if they are fairly well damped. Only a very slow sweep with a real time spectrum analyze can be certain to capture these resonances.
Far more disturbing about vacuum tubes is the fact that circuits where cathodes are directly heated and there is no negative feedback and no regulated power supply will probaby drift all over the place. Thermionic emissions vary with the square of temperature and small changes can have significant impact.
That being said, it surprises me that vacuum tubes can still perform quite well. The worst source of distortion IMO is likely the power output impedence matching transformers. MacIntosh liked that distortion so much, they used autotransformers in their early solid state models to make them sound more like tube amplifiers.
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