126e
it is a nice driver.
the "Oh my god" range to my ear happens in the "middle" midrange zone. where the 103e has "oh my god" happening in the upper midrange frequencies and 83e being even more of a "treble" driver.
it is the least "tame" sounding (yet most dynamic) of the whizzerless standard series from fostex. it is still very nice. IMO. especially for the money...
I have tried it in a decently reinforced cardboard open baffle. next to no bass. nice and open everything else. I would recommend a box. seems to be good comments on the recommended enclosure (though complecated), I like mine in the BIBs where they permanently reside. (search BIB forum, and zilla's website) Like all the fostex banana stuff, they take a REALLY long time to break in. the bass most noticably changed on my pair.
126e in a big version BIB with a t-amp = 30-20k well balanced for 200 bucks.
madisound ships in a week.
there are also others on this forum who have far more experience with this driver and will be able to help you more perhaps.
it is a very popular driver in the u.s. the 103e seems to be correspondingly popular in japan.
Clark
it is a nice driver.
the "Oh my god" range to my ear happens in the "middle" midrange zone. where the 103e has "oh my god" happening in the upper midrange frequencies and 83e being even more of a "treble" driver.
it is the least "tame" sounding (yet most dynamic) of the whizzerless standard series from fostex. it is still very nice. IMO. especially for the money...
I have tried it in a decently reinforced cardboard open baffle. next to no bass. nice and open everything else. I would recommend a box. seems to be good comments on the recommended enclosure (though complecated), I like mine in the BIBs where they permanently reside. (search BIB forum, and zilla's website) Like all the fostex banana stuff, they take a REALLY long time to break in. the bass most noticably changed on my pair.
126e in a big version BIB with a t-amp = 30-20k well balanced for 200 bucks.
madisound ships in a week.
there are also others on this forum who have far more experience with this driver and will be able to help you more perhaps.
it is a very popular driver in the u.s. the 103e seems to be correspondingly popular in japan.
Clark
Use it on an OB with a bass helper such as the Eminence Beta 15" driver... cross over at about 250 - 300Hz. Connect the drivers in series and use a cap across the Emdriver and an inductor across the 126e.
Makwe the baffle about 1300mm high and 500mm wide. Lean the baffle back by 5-8 degrees. Makes a base 450-500mm deep and make side wings that go in a straight line from the top of the baffle to the back of the base plate. Mount the Em 100-150mm off the floor and the 126 at about 750-800mm high. You will then have an OB that is flat to 40Hz and extends up as far as the fostex will allow..
James
Makwe the baffle about 1300mm high and 500mm wide. Lean the baffle back by 5-8 degrees. Makes a base 450-500mm deep and make side wings that go in a straight line from the top of the baffle to the back of the base plate. Mount the Em 100-150mm off the floor and the 126 at about 750-800mm high. You will then have an OB that is flat to 40Hz and extends up as far as the fostex will allow..
James
Yeah the 167 Nick uses goes down further than 126 will... a 127 goes a little further down but its not critical to the sound of the beastie...
I'm building a 127e based version that is about 2/3rds the size of the big beastie as its for a small flat, it uses a Beyma 8" bass helper and is flat to about 80Hz which is all my son needs
ciao
James
I'm building a 127e based version that is about 2/3rds the size of the big beastie as its for a small flat, it uses a Beyma 8" bass helper and is flat to about 80Hz which is all my son needs
ciao
James
Nice. Pity we can't get Dave's phase plugs in the FE12xE series drivers. Still, can't have everything. Try damping the magnet if you haven't already -makes a heck of a difference by itself. With some cone damping at strategic points the things give the Sigma a fright for about half the price.
Try damping the magnet if you haven't already -makes a heck of a difference by itself. With some cone damping at strategic points the things give the Sigma a fright for about half the price.
Thank's for all the info guys.You guys seem to be the most knowledgable as one guy on A'gon suggested to use the FE126e in OB with no helper woofer and claimed the bass would be fine for jazz and classical.I don't like the idea of X-overs so I will try a double BR box for them.Dont the 127 and the 126 bth have Fs of 70hz? If so how does the 127 go deeper? Sorry this is my first expirience with Fostex drivers.
If someone ever writes a phrase like "bass will be fine for jazz and classical", that generally means he doesn't actually listen to jazz or classical.
I mean, large-scale symphonic is some of the most difficult material to resolve in the bass frequencies. And organ music, fuggedaboutit.
I find it a really ignorant -- but common -- idea, that people who listen to jazz and/or classical wouldn't want full spectrum sound reproduction.
[/rant]
I mean, large-scale symphonic is some of the most difficult material to resolve in the bass frequencies. And organ music, fuggedaboutit.
I find it a really ignorant -- but common -- idea, that people who listen to jazz and/or classical wouldn't want full spectrum sound reproduction.
[/rant]
Ha ha, here's my second pet peeve.audiophile36 said:
If you reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally don't like crossovers, then run the 126 full-range on open baffle, and simply run the bass drivers with an active low-pass filter. That way, your 126 drivers are "pure".
If you are concerned with correct phase alignment, however, you would use an active crossover between the bass and full-range drivers.
If you are indeed concerned with correct phase alignment, furthermore, the last thing you would want to do is put the drivers in a vented cabinet, as phasing between the driver and the vent outputs is really messy.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/fostex127eSSB.asp
I really like the 127e in just about anything you can put it in. Its limitations are bass and an excitability that many of the mods apparently address (dammar, etc…). Recently a music lover friend was at my home listening to them and commented the sound was really warm… they can sound warm up against the wall and without a tweeter.
SI amp and Fostex 127e = great sound (regardless of price!)
Never tried them in an open baffle but expect a powered sub of choice would blend beautifully… without the sub I’d guess they’d be light in the bass.
Peace,
Godzilla
I really like the 127e in just about anything you can put it in. Its limitations are bass and an excitability that many of the mods apparently address (dammar, etc…). Recently a music lover friend was at my home listening to them and commented the sound was really warm… they can sound warm up against the wall and without a tweeter.
SI amp and Fostex 127e = great sound (regardless of price!)
Never tried them in an open baffle but expect a powered sub of choice would blend beautifully… without the sub I’d guess they’d be light in the bass.
Peace,
Godzilla
To answer your question, the 127 doesn't 'go lower' per se. What James was refering to is the higher Q, which lends itself better to OB or box applications than the lowish Q 126, if you don't want to add extra filters.
If you've decided against OB (still a good idea if you stick a decent bass driver on, and flter it off, as James suggests) I'd build a horn over a DBR. DBR is OKish, but it'll still need baffle-step compensation, and is generally less efficient. The horns, if positioned, should not, and will allow the driver to articulate better.
If you've decided against OB (still a good idea if you stick a decent bass driver on, and flter it off, as James suggests) I'd build a horn over a DBR. DBR is OKish, but it'll still need baffle-step compensation, and is generally less efficient. The horns, if positioned, should not, and will allow the driver to articulate better.
I have used that statement to describe some of my ML TL speakers and I listen almost exclusively to acousitc jazz. I also attend live acoustic jazz concerts that typicaly to feature a couple of horns backed by a piano-upright bass-drum trio in an excellent acoustic venue. When the group is playing the bass and drum provides support but the dominant sound is the horns or the piano. The bass output does not shake your insides. To me this is the way recorded jazz should sound and is cosistent with the way I "voice" or balance my speaker designs.
Now when I used to listen to rock, or am subjected to the modern music my three kids insist on listening to, the bass beat is the main feature of the music. For electronic or rock music feeling the bass is part of the listening experience and I am not sure my speaker designs will do this adequately. One would probably be better using a dedicated woofer or sub for this type of performance.
I think orchestra and big band jazz falls between these two reference points. Feeling the wall of sound from the orchestra is part of the enjoyment. If I were to describe my ML TL speaker design's ability to meet this challenge I would probably use a descriptive word such as adequate. It would really depend on the quality of the recording, the volume level of playback, the room, and probably the power available from the amp.
So when somebody describes their speaker design as "bass will be fine for jazz and classical" I know exactly what they mean and have a good idea of the tradeoffs they have made. The only thing I worry about with this description is "shout", in which case the speaker design does not provide a balanced SPL output but is tilted up producing a rising response hence no bass.
Point taken. The phrase still irks me. Even in the "mildest" acoustic jazz you have all kinds of low-frequency content that adds to the music. And in classical music, well, Wagner poses the biggest challenge to my system in terms of dynamic contrast.MJK said:
Also, the idea that a low-Q 4-1/2" driver in open baffle would produce enough bass for any sort of music is, well, crazy to me.
Decibel Dungeon's implementation is quite nifty:audiophile36 said:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/loudspeakers5.html
My ML TL design has measured and calculated bass output down to 40 Hz, it is very deep and tight. However, I would be kidding myself if I thought the design would move air like a 10, 12, or 15 inch dedicated woofer driver. The ML TL does a good job on acoustic jazz but does not produce that desired bass thump that can be felt and heard when playing loud rock or electronic music. That is the point I am trying to make.
I agree completely! That is why I have 2 15" Eminence woofers per side crossed over belw 200 Hz in my OB design.
Modeling the FE126E in MJK's excellent OB MathCad model shows the problem with the FE126E on its own in an OB. I picked a 24" x 32" OB and placed the FE126E up 18" on the centerline (the red curve below). To show how much can be improved with a woofer I added an Eminence Alpha 15A (15" woofer) next (the green dotted curve). Here's the sim including the combined FE126 and Alpha 15A (the blue curve):
This model avoids use of a xover which probably isn't advisable. The Alpha 15A has a typical woofer response peak (in this case around 2000 Hz) which will make the midrange sound very harsh for this combo. As well the FE126E has a limited Xmax so you'll want to roll it off below 100 Hz.
Note that I used a distance from the back wall of 100 in. Every OB I tried modeling performs worse the closer to the back wall its placed -- its bass falls off and there will be response irregularities (in the upper bass and lower midrange). I think I know what's happening but hope MJK will comment on this and provide a solution/workaround?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This model avoids use of a xover which probably isn't advisable. The Alpha 15A has a typical woofer response peak (in this case around 2000 Hz) which will make the midrange sound very harsh for this combo. As well the FE126E has a limited Xmax so you'll want to roll it off below 100 Hz.
Note that I used a distance from the back wall of 100 in. Every OB I tried modeling performs worse the closer to the back wall its placed -- its bass falls off and there will be response irregularities (in the upper bass and lower midrange). I think I know what's happening but hope MJK will comment on this and provide a solution/workaround?
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