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Full Range Build, 12" driver...
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:29 PM   #21
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Full Range Build, 12" driver...
4CF per Eminence recommendation might be good - although less could work. I ran 12lta open baffle with a cheap 21" woofer plus tweeter.. Also had 12lta stuffed into an Aristocrat and have run them in Karlson K12 (kinda llike that combo - it played Danley's Harley recording pretty well - - an AN10 in reflex would be jumping out of the gap trying to do the same. K12 are tuned ~62Hz so that's part of the power handling. I dropped a 12lta a couple of months ago - about a 3.5 foot drop where the back of the frame hit something - did not bend the frame but now the coil seems to rub

Last edited by freddi; 22nd July 2017 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:33 PM   #22
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Ah...there we are 007, your next mission is to contemplate whether you are ready now to take the next logical step and move towards the fullrange nirvana which is..........OPEN BAFFLE......
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:42 PM   #23
Richard Ellis is offline Richard Ellis  Argentina
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Location: Mar del Plata, a BIG seasonal getaway city, can see the Ocean from our residence.
Ah yes. open baffle...back in the lost years when I was too cheap to buy more wood, didn't know what I was doing...the seemingly only thing I knew was the "acoustic short circuit", or "doublet operation".



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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:48 PM   #24
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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K12 sounds like it could have some promise... I need to do more reading so I can understand how the enclosure works.

Part of the allure of the bbbib design was good output even at something like 25 hz....

I wish i could listen to them all side by side!

Open baffle.. now thats a whole 'nother animal! I'd have to hear it in person to believe it!

Every new project is another mission... ha!
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:51 PM   #25
stocktrader200 is offline stocktrader200  Canada
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the crossover is the most important piece. You will have to tweak until perfect
Two 8 inch woofers will extend down to 35Hz. they can also hit 3 - 5 khz smoothly
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:51 PM   #26
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrx007 View Post

Open baffle.. now thats a whole 'nother animal! I'd have to hear it in person to believe it!
You can, that's the beauty, very easy to "knock up"
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Old 22nd July 2017, 11:10 PM   #27
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Scott - fair point! Maybe worth an experiment before i build any enclosures... I'm just doubting its going to have the full sound I'm looking for.. though i could see (hear?) it being amazing for acoustic stuff.

I was hoping not to have to rely on crossovers too much... just roll in the tweeter up high where the full range rolls off like 8-10k.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 11:12 PM   #28
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Full Range Build, 12" driver...
K12 would probably have a useful limit of about 70Hz - K15 a half octave lower. The rear chamber volume and overall tuning (~like a series bandpass box) vs parameters set the low end. I like Kappa12a in K12 size with a K-tube/compression driver tweeter and would add a modest subwoofer. The Karlsonator 12 will go down probably as low as K15 and is tuned per plans to ~37Hz vs about 45Hz for K15. Adding a helper tweeter, if on top, pushes it pretty far from the woofer. It would be interesting to run 12lta in K15. (K15 - the original Karlson, was finished in the summer of 1951 - made its debut at the 1952 hotel New Yorker show) XRK971 has an elaborate akaback model for K15 type - I think its sims are somewhat optimistic on the low end - X's Karlsonator sim seems to work pretty well.

a tqwt about 4 or so cubic feet might be another option - whether better than reflex = ?

a higher source impedance amp such as SET with little or no global NFB would tend to give more "bass" open baffle (in the Z peak region) than common solid state amp. A series resistor can be put between a solid state amp and speaker - raises Q plus forms a variable voltage divider where the resonance frequency is attenuated less than the lower impedance regions

Last edited by freddi; 22nd July 2017 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 11:29 PM   #29
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Full Range Build, 12" driver...
My experience with really big FRs is limited to the 12LTA in Em-Kens. To get somewhat decent mid-top it sactifices at the bottom. There is a range of tuning in the Em-Ken thou — if you have lots of room gain you can tune it lower for deeper bass. Daniel is borrowing our Em-Kens and has subwoofers (2 with 2xSDX10) and supertweeters (the dipole Heils).

Click the image to open in full size.

I believe the sweet spot for fidelity in FRs is 4-5” drivers (ie Mark Audio Alpair7.x/10.x, Fostex FF165wk). That size tends to have better mid/top and capable of greater DDR/detail. The larger ones go at least as low, but sacrifice efficiency to do so If you are playing really loud in a big room they might not cut it.

A compromise might be phase plugged Visaton B200s. Better fidelity than than the 12LTA but a much higher price and a “box” for them is a big OB or fairly big box — not that the 12LTA doesn’t need a biggish box.

Click the image to open in full size.

Note that magnet size alone is not relevant without considering the entire magnetic circuit, As a generalization more magnet typically gives more efficiency, lower Qt, and less bass capability.

dave
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Old 23rd July 2017, 12:10 AM   #30
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Freddi - I see, had not realized that karlsonator and karlson were not the same. They are certainly neat enclosures, especially the acoustic lensing. Karlsonator sounds more my speed if its tuned to 37hz. Is there any merit to mounting the tweeter behind the front panels directly in front of the woofer, and get the same dispersion for the highs?

Dave, the em-ken is another design i was i interested in. I'd like to keep this a budget build, so unfortunately fancy/expensive drivers are out. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what a 5" driver cranked up with some classic rock playing would sound like... doesn't seem that a cone that size would play well at 50-60hz while cranking the amp to 11. So you're stuck turning down the bass to cut distortion, or back to adding helper woofers, crossovers, etc.

On a side note, the drivers you treat w/ enabl and phase plugs look amazing... No doubt they sound much better too!
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