kazap....
I think you got some reading to do, instead of dropping in on page 426 of this thread and not understand how it is done.
So, enjoy the next two weeks or so of reading!
Oh, if you don't really feel like it, think about these two things...
- He uses 50 of them. That is, if I remember well, between a 15" and 18" single driver in cone surface.
- You've never heard of vented enclosures? Transmission lines? Those will also extend the bass performance of a single, or multiple drivers, compared to the manufacturer's data...
But, really... you should read.
There's so much information in this thread, it's insane! I wish there were an archive of the subjects discussed within this thread... it would be gold!
@kazap, as both replies before mine so far note, there's more than one thing working in our advantage.
BYRTT is right about room gain playing an important part. You can see that there's a big difference in output from the left array that's in a corner compared to the right array that has less corner support if you look trough my published FR measurements. I mix and match from both channels below 70 Hz to get the most even response throughout the listening area (a much larger area than the sweet spot alone).
Perceval notes the total Sd area, as 25 of those little drivers have the same Sd as about a 16" driver would have. Though, with a limit on excursion. X-max of these drivers is 2.55mm, x-mech is quite a bit larger before anything breaks but I try to stay within the safety of x-max. My new amplifier could get me into trouble, at 350 watt into 8 ohm. The arrays could sustain about 240 watt into 8 ohm before passing x-max. However I'd rather have a more powerful amp that doesn't come close to clipping than an underpowered amp that clips. That last scenario is much more likely to cause damage.
The corner placement, together with the Sd area and some bass boost, much like a Linkwitz transform, makes the bass possible with these arrays. Due to having the cones spread out vertically, almost as tall as the room, we get some advantage from that as well.
My processing provides a maximum of about 14 dB of boost. But I also cut back energy (about 10 dB) at another part of the curve. As well as using boost again on the top end, only ever so slightly though.
This write-up: Infinite Line Source: analysis will tell you how a theoretical infinite line array acts, with a 3dB/octave decline towards higher frequencies.
Another paper I linked in the first post: https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf will make clear how the many drivers in an array sum and have more output efficiency than a single driver. Combine those theories, mix in room gain and corner placement and some processing decisions to make the best out of it all and you get bass that is less influenced by room modes, as this graph can show us:
I have admitted, more than once, the arrays are not capable of sustaining a loud 20 Hz note that approaches 0 dB. But in music in general, where these notes hardly ever are at full force at those frequencies, I can get away with the frequency curve I have dialled in with a -3 dB point at 17 Hz. Listening at a 85 to 88 dB on average SPL level this works out quite well.
You can feel it as well as hear it, but there's no bloom at certain frequencies due to room effects. It will probably be a bit unusual to listen to at first as we are so accustomed to hear room influence. I didn't just park 2 speakers in a room and hope for the best.
Just out of curiosity, measure at your own listening spot and see what your room does. Most of the time it won't be pretty. How a less pretty graph can still sound pretty good has more to do with our brain's capability to filter out these room effects. You can train yourself to hear it/them though. I don't encourage anyone to do so, as it's much harder to unlearn.
BYRTT is right about room gain playing an important part. You can see that there's a big difference in output from the left array that's in a corner compared to the right array that has less corner support if you look trough my published FR measurements. I mix and match from both channels below 70 Hz to get the most even response throughout the listening area (a much larger area than the sweet spot alone).
Perceval notes the total Sd area, as 25 of those little drivers have the same Sd as about a 16" driver would have. Though, with a limit on excursion. X-max of these drivers is 2.55mm, x-mech is quite a bit larger before anything breaks but I try to stay within the safety of x-max. My new amplifier could get me into trouble, at 350 watt into 8 ohm. The arrays could sustain about 240 watt into 8 ohm before passing x-max. However I'd rather have a more powerful amp that doesn't come close to clipping than an underpowered amp that clips. That last scenario is much more likely to cause damage.
The corner placement, together with the Sd area and some bass boost, much like a Linkwitz transform, makes the bass possible with these arrays. Due to having the cones spread out vertically, almost as tall as the room, we get some advantage from that as well.
My processing provides a maximum of about 14 dB of boost. But I also cut back energy (about 10 dB) at another part of the curve. As well as using boost again on the top end, only ever so slightly though.
This write-up: Infinite Line Source: analysis will tell you how a theoretical infinite line array acts, with a 3dB/octave decline towards higher frequencies.
Another paper I linked in the first post: https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf will make clear how the many drivers in an array sum and have more output efficiency than a single driver. Combine those theories, mix in room gain and corner placement and some processing decisions to make the best out of it all and you get bass that is less influenced by room modes, as this graph can show us:
I have admitted, more than once, the arrays are not capable of sustaining a loud 20 Hz note that approaches 0 dB. But in music in general, where these notes hardly ever are at full force at those frequencies, I can get away with the frequency curve I have dialled in with a -3 dB point at 17 Hz. Listening at a 85 to 88 dB on average SPL level this works out quite well.
You can feel it as well as hear it, but there's no bloom at certain frequencies due to room effects. It will probably be a bit unusual to listen to at first as we are so accustomed to hear room influence. I didn't just park 2 speakers in a room and hope for the best.
Just out of curiosity, measure at your own listening spot and see what your room does. Most of the time it won't be pretty. How a less pretty graph can still sound pretty good has more to do with our brain's capability to filter out these room effects. You can train yourself to hear it/them though. I don't encourage anyone to do so, as it's much harder to unlearn.
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There are some test songs that really tax the lower bass, I've mentioned a few throughout this thread. These are songs where you feel the bass build up much more than you hear it. A song like: A Perfect Circle - Lullaby has a very powerful bottom end.
Most systems won't do it justice though, it is a lot of fun to listen to, but also one of very few tracks that made me aware of the boundaries of my system.
More info about that right here...
Most systems won't do it justice though, it is a lot of fun to listen to, but also one of very few tracks that made me aware of the boundaries of my system.
More info about that right here...
Thanks very much for all the great info and your generosity in sharing. Its an inspiring design.
Now that my amplifier is up and running as it should be, my DAC has moved and now resides by the amplifier, I'm about to redo some of my processing to make up for the small differences between the Pioneer amplifier and the new one.
I'm not sure how I want to do this though, I might even try several paths and see which one I like best.
- I could keep the FIR filters I have already and only adjust/redo the post EQ.
- I could redo both the FIR filters and post EQ, to adjust the FIR filter to the new amplifier.
- I could give multiple measurement points another try, this time using less points, about 3 for each side.
I may do all of those and pick a winner, but it would take me quite a while to get trough it all.
I'm not sure how I want to do this though, I might even try several paths and see which one I like best.
- I could keep the FIR filters I have already and only adjust/redo the post EQ.
- I could redo both the FIR filters and post EQ, to adjust the FIR filter to the new amplifier.
- I could give multiple measurement points another try, this time using less points, about 3 for each side.
I may do all of those and pick a winner, but it would take me quite a while to get trough it all.
Somehow, I'm pretty sure this is the path you will take...
This thread is 427 pages and still going for a reason... you won't settle for something only done halfway!
Good luck!
Somehow, I'm pretty sure this is the path you will take...
This thread is 427 pages and still going for a reason... you won't settle for something only done halfway!
Good luck!
Well said!
And good luck wesayso, keep us updated!
Somehow, I'm pretty sure this is the path you will take...
This thread is 427 pages and still going for a reason... you won't settle for something only done halfway!
Good luck!
You're probably right
Impressing prediction there perceval
Agree it would probably take quite a while more or less start from scratch, benefit for that route should be the more knowledge and experience we build up in learning of tips and tricks over time would then be incorporated and give piece in mind. Should you at moment not be in mood or actual have the several days of time it takes to do it right, have a alternative proposal that should work and get new amp to perform same performance scheme as Pioneer was calibrated for and what me and Koldby can confirm sounded to dream for. Recipe is in REW loop Pioneer with a resistor divider on output and do same for new amp, now divide one with the other on "All SPL" tab to get a difference curve that you process flat over in Rephase and this processing should be added to your current FIR filter to account for their difference in amplitude and phase domain. In that Pioneer was AC coupled because its active preamp was turned on and new amp is pure DC coupled will expect into amplitude domain only correction difference will be few 1st order capacitors at very lows, where into phase domain you probably need tweak with pure phase EQ to correct for the difference that new amp have enormous 3mHz bandwidth coverage.
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add on before the divide thing above then offset roughly both amps amplitude curve to zero dB line in REW and then zoom in around 1kHz point with as much zoom as REW can deliver to get highest possible resolution and continue offset both amps with very small digits until they are exactly overlaid when passing the combined 1kHz/0dB point, and now push "Add to data" before the divide thing.
Thanks for the suggestion, BYRTT. It would be an option to get the Goldmund clone sound more like the Pioneer. However the phase curve I had with the Pioneer was a "mastered" phase curve anyway. Just not fitting to this new amplifier.
I have enough measurements and data points to go on and include the new amplifier within the processing chain.
It's the best route to go, it just takes more time to get it all done again. Yesterday I only enjoyed listening, it was too hot to do any measurements.
I'm always looking to see if I can advance/enhance my performance. Time will tell. Yesterday I re-ran part of the shuffler processing again, just out of curiosity. I still have many ideas to try, the problem lately is finding the time to do it all.
The base sound I have right now still is very good, but why do I always think/feel I can do even better.
I have enough measurements and data points to go on and include the new amplifier within the processing chain.
It's the best route to go, it just takes more time to get it all done again. Yesterday I only enjoyed listening, it was too hot to do any measurements.
I'm always looking to see if I can advance/enhance my performance. Time will tell. Yesterday I re-ran part of the shuffler processing again, just out of curiosity. I still have many ideas to try, the problem lately is finding the time to do it all.
The base sound I have right now still is very good, but why do I always think/feel I can do even better
.
2 things, slight differences in impedance and the Goldmund clone being DC coupled at the low end and on the other side flat out to 3 MHz.
The biggest difference I measured is phase. The rest falls in the category "small FR differences over a larger area". The ones that most people say about you can't hear.
Which could be true if the room would swamp the perceived sound with reflections. That's not the case here.
The biggest difference I measured is phase. The rest falls in the category "small FR differences over a larger area". The ones that most people say about you can't hear
.Which could be true if the room would swamp the perceived sound with reflections. That's not the case here.
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Every once in a while I look at some places where I expect some reading fun. Today it was Computer Audiophile, just to see what Mitch was up to:
Integrating Subwoofers with Stereo Mains using Audiolense - CA Academy - Computer Audiophile
Pretty cool read for anyone thinking of adding subs to their speakers, be it arrays or otherwise!
Makes me want to run to the garage and start on my own pair.
Integrating Subwoofers with Stereo Mains using Audiolense - CA Academy - Computer Audiophile
Pretty cool read for anyone thinking of adding subs to their speakers, be it arrays or otherwise!
Makes me want to run to the garage and start on my own pair.
Haven't done anything yet, we've had a heat wave that continues on and on over here.
But, after some minor tweaks to tonality, mostly consisting of very small tweaks in the mid/side routines I've had a ball just listening to music.
I know I can improve, but with one CD, I just drifted away on the music, or should I say noise...
I figured to try Infected Mushroom, Converting Vegetarians (part One) again, always going fast forward to the song Avratz... But I let it run and... bam! a weird trip into their artificial world of wonder. I have to say, they do set mood and atmosphere in these two Converting Vegetarians albums...
I had a blast just listening today. My son came home, earlier than expected and I had him listen to Shakawkaw... I had him close his eyes and just flow with the music.
One eye opened for reference and a big smile emerged... pointing his fingers into many directions of where the music came from.
The measurements will have to wait for another week or so. But this was worth it.
A good reminder that the real magic is in the music. All we have to do is cater to that.
But, after some minor tweaks to tonality, mostly consisting of very small tweaks in the mid/side routines I've had a ball just listening to music.
I know I can improve, but with one CD, I just drifted away on the music, or should I say noise...
I figured to try Infected Mushroom, Converting Vegetarians (part One) again, always going fast forward to the song Avratz... But I let it run and... bam! a weird trip into their artificial world of wonder. I have to say, they do set mood and atmosphere in these two Converting Vegetarians albums...
I had a blast just listening today. My son came home, earlier than expected and I had him listen to Shakawkaw... I had him close his eyes and just flow with the music.
One eye opened for reference and a big smile emerged... pointing his fingers into many directions of where the music came from.
The measurements will have to wait for another week or so. But this was worth it.
A good reminder that the real magic is in the music. All we have to do is cater to that.
Amen!
My favorite track from them is Dancing with Kadafi. It takes me on a trip every time.
I'm wondering what a heatwave in The Netherlands feels like.
I'm used to 33-35C with 90% humidity...
That's regular spring, summer and fall weather here.
I bless the person who invented the air conditioner every day!
My favorite track from them is Dancing with Kadafi. It takes me on a trip every time.
I'm wondering what a heatwave in The Netherlands feels like.
I'm used to 33-35C with 90% humidity...
That's regular spring, summer and fall weather here.
I bless the person who invented the air conditioner every day!
Our heat wave will be nothing, compared to your climate . However I live in an old house, build back in 1927 and it gets pretty hot inside. Which means I open up windows to get some cool breeze trough (no airco) and that makes it unsuitable for measurements as the noise floor increases.
In a way I'm not ready yet to start measuring. I'm trying to figure out how to combine all previous experiences. Which means I'll have to get a clear mental picture before I start. I don't have as much time available to do this as I used to have when I started my FIR experiments.
For what I've learned so far, balance is the most important key to good/great tonality. Switching amplifiers had changed my balance somewhat. Minor changes but still important for perception. With only a few minor tweaks I was able to get that part real good again, at least to my taste. The JBL preferred listeners curve I've shown more than once is an excellent guide line to get it somewhere close i.m.h.o.
I still prefer to have the mid/side EQ on top of that, it always wins in listening tests and I've done several of those comparisons.
Contrary to many pro's in the business, I still believe phase has a rather large effect on our perception too. If you ask me, the tonal part gets you a large part (the largest in fact) of what's right, but the phase response can make it feel right. If the lower registers are there to enhance it.
I'll need to find out how to dial that phase part in again, which probably means using some RePhase tweaks on top of the FIR filter generation.
There are so many small parameters to play with, but I do believe getting tonality and phase where I want it is key to get the best performance I can dial in.
. However I live in an old house, build back in 1927 and it gets pretty hot inside. Which means I open up windows to get some cool breeze trough (no airco) and that makes it unsuitable for measurements as the noise floor increases.In a way I'm not ready yet to start measuring. I'm trying to figure out how to combine all previous experiences. Which means I'll have to get a clear mental picture before I start. I don't have as much time available to do this as I used to have when I started my FIR experiments.
For what I've learned so far, balance is the most important key to good/great tonality. Switching amplifiers had changed my balance somewhat. Minor changes but still important for perception. With only a few minor tweaks I was able to get that part real good again, at least to my taste. The JBL preferred listeners curve I've shown more than once is an excellent guide line to get it somewhere close i.m.h.o.
I still prefer to have the mid/side EQ on top of that, it always wins in listening tests and I've done several of those comparisons.
Contrary to many pro's in the business, I still believe phase has a rather large effect on our perception too. If you ask me, the tonal part gets you a large part (the largest in fact) of what's right, but the phase response can make it feel right. If the lower registers are there to enhance it.
I'll need to find out how to dial that phase part in again, which probably means using some RePhase tweaks on top of the FIR filter generation.
There are so many small parameters to play with, but I do believe getting tonality and phase where I want it is key to get the best performance I can dial in.
I hope your staying cool despite your summer heat wave. Thanks for sharing your experiences with equalising e.g. #3924 and #3677 .
I found the Toole article had a graph that seems to show most speakers achieve the desired curve thanks to room reinforcement. I guess your Line Arrays wouldn't have the same bass reinforcement as a normal box that has floor bounce; making equalisation even more important?
Attachments
Floor bounce is usually destructive interference and tends to occur in the 150 to 300Hz region because of the distance between the driver the floor and the listener. Having speakers go almost to the floor helps to reduce floor bounce by filling in the gaps so to speak.
Bass reinforcement happens due to the room dimensions and placement of the speakers relative to the boundaries in a general sense. You get the same room gain with a line array as you would with a conventional speaker but you significantly reduce the floor and ceiling reflections.
Bass reinforcement happens due to the room dimensions and placement of the speakers relative to the boundaries in a general sense. You get the same room gain with a line array as you would with a conventional speaker but you significantly reduce the floor and ceiling reflections.