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Old 21st July 2013, 10:55 PM   #21
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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The original "classic" Karlson cab was sold mostly as a DIY flatpack which was designed to work with a variety of drivers and on some preconceived (right or wrong) notion of what had WAF.

As charming as it is (jamikl, I'd say more generally mid century modern aka soft googie, rather than Danish furniture design. In fact it looks just as much as something Glenn of California (of Altec Lansing Laguna fame) could have made with its slanted feet), I think it would behove us to reverse engineer the design, understand exactly how it works (and how it doesn't) and separate the different aspects of it from each other.

This, rather than just mindlessly copying the same basic design (somewhat flawed I understand) over and over.

The bandpass with a bass slot-lens over it for better coupling and dispersion at higher frequencies, is pretty well understood and has been implemented in many other designs over the years.

That leaves us with the second and to me most interesting and intriguing feature of the cap: The ability to make large normally very beamy fullrangers (or any not beam, or indeed (if the brochures are to be believed) have close to a 180 degree even dispersion of all frequencies up to ca. 15 kHz.
The usual solution to this has been to put some kind of reflector above (or on the side as with the Paragon) a horizontally mounted driver, with varying success. The reflectors also end up rather big to be effective.

Thinking about, I begin to have the feeling that there is more at play here than just a regular slot. Maybe some edge diffraction is going on like the B&O lens from some years ago:
Click the image to open in full size.
I'd say there is some similarity.

Some of the dispersion characteristic could simply have to do with the fact that the driver is at an angle or that a coaxial driver was used. But that couldn't lead to the claimed results alone.

So first and formost:
Is there any solid, independent measures of the high frequency dispersion abilities of the Karlson cab. And just as important what does the long time users of the cab have to say about it?
Strangely enough I haven't been able to find either anywhere.

Last edited by Squeak; 21st July 2013 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 21st July 2013, 11:26 PM   #22
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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Also, it's curious how it seems that it doesn't matter what end of the slot the driver is put at. With the clam the slot is reversed with the narrow end towards the driver.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 01:52 AM   #23
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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Thanks IG81. Yes , that is what I had in mind. Not sure which way the Karlson apertures should face though and am also not sure how to mount a mid or tweeter tube to reflect off the curved surface as the small horn in the Paragon did.
The reason why I am thinking this way is that it looks good and I don't have tin ears. Most of my high frequency hearing has gone so I am not looking for audiophile speakers any more. If what I build does not hurt my ears after extended listening periods and also conveys the emotion in the music, that is good enough for me. A more broad sweet spot would also be good. I guess that places me at odds with most of those who frequent this forum.LOL.

There is also an opportunity with the shape you drew to build a down firing sub between the left and right speakers in the volume behind the curve.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 02:28 AM   #24
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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Another question. Is it known what causes the suckout in the response and the impedance spike which corresponds with the beginning of the suckout and the end of the suckout range?
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Old 22nd July 2013, 08:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IG81 View Post
Funny you should mention Paragon and Karlson together. Look at what I roughly sketched a couple of years back for kicks:

Click the image to open in full size.

IG
Hi. That is a wicked cool idea Regards /Bo
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Old 22nd July 2013, 10:20 AM   #26
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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But it doesn't use the paragon reflector for anything? How is that cool?
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Old 22nd July 2013, 02:24 PM   #27
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Default Directivity Measurements of Mini Karlsonator with Dual TC9FD

Quote:
So first and formost:
Is there any solid, independent measures of the high frequency dispersion abilities of the Karlson cab. And just as important what does the long time users of the cab have to say about it?
Strangely enough I haven't been able to find either anywhere.
Squeak,
OK, here are the directivity measurements you have been wishing for... My PC sound card craps out at above 8 kHz so I am only presenting results up to 5 kHz. The human vocal range is really only up to 3 kHz and below that range is where 'spatial imaging' is really important for vocals. The measurements were made using a tripod mounted Panasonic WM61A mic capsule mounted at the end of a 12 in long 0.250 in OD aluminum tube, Holmimpulse was used, a ruler was used to set the 1 meter distance for each angle. The measurement height was 50 cm above the floor, speakers were mounted 2.5 cm away from back wall. The data was collected in approximate 10 deg increments and folded to produce 180 deg polar plot. The plot is shown with data at 100 Hz (Blue), 1000 Hz (Red), 2000 Hz (Black), 5000 Hz (Green). As you can see, the performance of the Karlson aperture appears to provide quite an even performance up to 2 kHz, and start having fall-off at 5 kHz when going past 50 deg off-axis. From what I can see, this is consistent with my subjective listening experience that the directivity is very even and has a large sweet spot. It is also consistent with statements made by other Karlson owners that a 100 deg to 120 deg wide HF horn is required to match the pattern of the bass and mids from the K aperture.

Are you closer to being a believer in the effect of a K-aperture on directivity?
Attached Images
File Type: png Karlsinator-0.53X-Dual-TC9FD-Directivity-Polar-1m.png (23.3 KB, 1597 views)
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Old 22nd July 2013, 02:49 PM   #28
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Hi xrk971,

That's a great looking graph in Post #27. What does the vertical response look (or sound) like?

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Old 22nd July 2013, 02:59 PM   #29
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Default Post #20

Hi IG81,

I agree w/ Squeak's assessment in Post #26, that the standard Karlson enclosure will not make full use of the Paragon style reflector. Maybe using two Karlson clams pointed at the reflector while maintaining the Paragon style dual low frequency horns, and some JBL slot radiators for the very high frequencies? In other words replace the JBL mid-frequency horns w/ clams?

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Old 22nd July 2013, 03:09 PM   #30
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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First of all, thank you X for going through all the trouble!
I'd hate to sound ungrateful or be irritating but that isn't better than the regular dispersion pattern of that driver naked, up to 5 kHz.

I have no doubt that Karlson cabs are doing some things right. What I'm not sure of is what?
Maybe what it does to the lower registers changes the perception of the higher somewhat?

Anyhow, I think it is curious how there is absolutely no polar/dispersion measurements to be found anywhere on all the sites praising just the cabs ability to disperse, even the high frequencies.
Not even simple listening observations done on music or test tones are to be found.

That turns on my "pseudo science alarm". Not that I'm against loose empirical observations and tinkering (indeed I'd say that's the real basis of all science and engineering). But at some point solid measurements have to be made.
To be able to share your results to name just one reason.

Last edited by Squeak; 22nd July 2013 at 03:16 PM.
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