After much pondering about how to have your cake and eat it, I have decided to make some frugal horns for a pair of 7.3's. In the event that it's a Frank Zappa or Led Zepplin evening rather than string quartets, I want to add a subwoofer and the option of a high pass for the 7.3's.
My thoughts were to build in an alternative input into the frugal horns with a high pass, and for the rest of the time listen to them unaided.
I will be running the speakers with a F5, and thought I might power the subs with a spare gain clone.
Is there a recommended diy sub that would work well? And is there a good level for making the high pass for the 7.3's and a low pass for the sub?
Many thanks for your thoughts
My thoughts were to build in an alternative input into the frugal horns with a high pass, and for the rest of the time listen to them unaided.
I will be running the speakers with a F5, and thought I might power the subs with a spare gain clone.
Is there a recommended diy sub that would work well? And is there a good level for making the high pass for the 7.3's and a low pass for the sub?
Many thanks for your thoughts
We have been stuck on SDX7 for while, now that they are unobtainium, we are starting tolook at others, but haven't found anything we can get ecited about yet,
If you can find something that will work in the ~14-20 litres you can get out of a stealthWoofer/deflactor, that works really well. A PLLXO at ~100 Hz should work out pretty well.
dave
If you can find something that will work in the ~14-20 litres you can get out of a stealthWoofer/deflactor, that works really well. A PLLXO at ~100 Hz should work out pretty well.
dave
Thanks dave, the stealth woofers look great, but my room will not allow the extra space (children) It's a slight stretch to choose the fh over the pensils. I was hoping to build a passive sub powered by the gain clone (hidden in another corner) and an option to use high pass on the 7.3's. I have very limited understanding of the science, but can follow a plan and use a soldering iron. The other option is to buy a sub from new, but with limited budget I am not sure if I can get one which crosses over high enough.
Sorry for the late reply. I'm not sure how much shipping will add, but the Dayton RSS-210HF-4 has been used as the woofer in several 3 way designs, so will cross plenty high to meet the 7.3.
Dayton Audio RSS210HF-4 8" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-456
Dayton Audio RSS210HF-4 8" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-456
Hi Chaps,
Should you be lucky enough to win the lottery, buying yourself a nice spanking new Lotus sports car, would you then put low-grip tires on it?
Please take time to read my many posts on the subject of high mass boomer bass drivers like the one suggested.
Please take a look at Dave's (Planet 10) post No.2.
Mark.
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Woofer 6 / EL166?
A pair of those per side in wide baffled MLTL kick serious butt for a lot less $ than the SDX7, but alas, are also now "unobtanium"
edit: we have had some success with multiples of one of the little Peerless mid bass drivers, as well as Silver Flutes in the 6" range - cones any larger and more massive than that can certainly move a lot of air, and be appropriate enough for the "full immersion" HT experience, but definitely not transparent / seamless in the transition to a high resolution wide-bander such as the 7.3 - and as we'll soon start hearing more field reports, the new 10.3 and 10P
A pair of those per side in wide baffled MLTL kick serious butt for a lot less $ than the SDX7, but alas, are also now "unobtanium"
edit: we have had some success with multiples of one of the little Peerless mid bass drivers, as well as Silver Flutes in the 6" range - cones any larger and more massive than that can certainly move a lot of air, and be appropriate enough for the "full immersion" HT experience, but definitely not transparent / seamless in the transition to a high resolution wide-bander such as the 7.3 - and as we'll soon start hearing more field reports, the new 10.3 and 10P
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Scott - indeed, if I remember correctly, wasn't it Colin's enthusiasm for the Woofer6 that contributed to its early stock depletion?
I know that Mark has loftier goals than yet another budget priced mid bass driver - I was almost gonna say "boiler plate design", but it was rather more than that.
Too bad it's no longer available, but c-est la vie, n'est-ce pas?
Like I said earlier, there is no shortage of reasonable candidates for mid-woofers to support the A7.3 - pick your favorite.
I know that Mark has loftier goals than yet another budget priced mid bass driver - I was almost gonna say "boiler plate design", but it was rather more than that.
Too bad it's no longer available, but c-est la vie, n'est-ce pas?
Like I said earlier, there is no shortage of reasonable candidates for mid-woofers to support the A7.3 - pick your favorite.
Hello Chaps,
I'll do my best to take another look at making a large woof. I got out of hospital yesterday having done my first 6 month check, got the "green light" no new tumours (phew). So feeling like a new fella, I'll put my best foot forward and what we can russell-up in the way of a bass unit.
I can understand those guys looking at big subs. While they don't mechanically /acoustically match the Alpair's, its given me an idea.
I must also crack on with Alpair 8 and I've got some thinking brewing on the 12P...... ummmmmph.......lots to do.
Cheers
Mark.
I'll do my best to take another look at making a large woof. I got out of hospital yesterday having done my first 6 month check, got the "green light" no new tumours (phew)
. So feeling like a new fella, I'll put my best foot forward and what we can russell-up in the way of a bass unit. I can understand those guys looking at big subs. While they don't mechanically /acoustically match the Alpair's, its given me an idea.
I must also crack on with Alpair 8 and I've got some thinking brewing on the 12P...... ummmmmph.......lots to do.
Cheers
Mark.
lorien: I don't think one of your questions has been answered yet - re "good level for making the high pass for the 7.3s"
If you're cramped for spaced and can only afford the room for a single (small cube?) woofer, I'd be inclined to try 100 - 120 Hz. If you had space for a pair of small woofers, maybe go as high as 200.
I'm currently playing with a new bi-amped (non-horn) design with A7.3 and dual SDX7s - for no mostly on HT receiver with mains set to small, XO'd to the mono LFE channel at 110Hz - not ideal, but sounds fine. On a brief session last weekend we played them properly bi-amped with stereo PLLXO at 160HZ - much better.
If you're cramped for spaced and can only afford the room for a single (small cube?) woofer, I'd be inclined to try 100 - 120 Hz. If you had space for a pair of small woofers, maybe go as high as 200.
I'm currently playing with a new bi-amped (non-horn) design with A7.3 and dual SDX7s - for no mostly on HT receiver with mains set to small, XO'd to the mono LFE channel at 110Hz - not ideal, but sounds fine. On a brief session last weekend we played them properly bi-amped with stereo PLLXO at 160HZ - much better.
I got out of hospital yesterday having done my first 6 month check, got the "green light" no new tumours (phew)
Congrats Mark, that's great news.
jeff
Hi S,
Thanks for your support and encouragement.
Yes, I listened to several FAST/multiway systems using woofs and subs, 2 of which were high power, high mass units. All were combined with Alpairs. For most music, the subs were terrible. The best description that I can muster to describe the sub's output was akin to a pig passing a large volume of wind. The Alpairs were overwhelmed by a wall of LF oscillatory noise.
I've advised at considerable length on this issue, many previous postings. Look for more efficient, lower mass large woofs that don't need a battleship sized amp to drive them. General rule of thumb: Don't mix low mass-lower power units with higher power-high mass drivers if you want a good musical result.
If you're into Home Theatre, rock un roll and play loud, then its a different story, you'll need strong high mass emitters to do the work. Not an area of audio to which most full-rangers are well suited.
Cheers
Mark.
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Hi Mark,
A slight deviation from topic, but what about some kind of rigid metal cone woofer driver of the ~6-8" variety?
As I understand it, the rigid cone puts a large bell-mode resonance in the kHz range, but for use in a FAST system with a crossover of a couple of hundred Hz, I'd expect that resonance to be suitably attenuated.
I suspect the cone could be made rather light, and possibly even match the aesthetics of the smaller drivers you've made.
IMO, subwoofers should never be heard. I mean that in the sense that you should only ever notice the subwoofer when it gets switched off and suddenly there's an octave or two of music missing. Your experience with a subwoofer sounds like the levels weren't anywhere near matched, so I'd see if some tweaking can improve things. I honestly do think that big heavy cones can do decent bass once properly implemented and set up.
Chris
PS - congratulations on your journey to recovery.
A slight deviation from topic, but what about some kind of rigid metal cone woofer driver of the ~6-8" variety?
As I understand it, the rigid cone puts a large bell-mode resonance in the kHz range, but for use in a FAST system with a crossover of a couple of hundred Hz, I'd expect that resonance to be suitably attenuated.
I suspect the cone could be made rather light, and possibly even match the aesthetics of the smaller drivers you've made.
IMO, subwoofers should never be heard. I mean that in the sense that you should only ever notice the subwoofer when it gets switched off and suddenly there's an octave or two of music missing. Your experience with a subwoofer sounds like the levels weren't anywhere near matched, so I'd see if some tweaking can improve things. I honestly do think that big heavy cones can do decent bass once properly implemented and set up.
Chris
PS - congratulations on your journey to recovery.
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I am currently using a pair of Goldwood 1858's in H-frames as the bottom for A12P's. They are crossed at 100Hz 4th order and it is absolutely seamless. Proof is 'cello, bassoon and piano that have the XO in the middle of their range. Mark's warnings notwithstanding, I am going to get a pair of 12" Dayton's so I can get well into the 20's. That project will have to wait a while as I have A10m's and A10P's to play with.
Bob
Bob
Hi Bob,
A nice choice. Large cone acreage, low mass (for its large size). Its a good indication the relative emittance sensitivity of the driver's power-train. Your following the low mass to low mass principle as I recollect your a music enthusiast.
Thanks
Mark.
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Thanks Chris for your best wishes, much welcome,
Larger metal alloy cones are problematic. Their mass must be significantly increased to maintain stability, killing off resonance performance. The original Alp 12 is a good example of alloy cone limitations when compared to its paper cone replacement.
Re subs, I've spent allot of time with guys here experimenting with them. I'm very familiar with the particular driver that member Fastbike recommended. Rest assured I know how to help set-up - integrate a sub.
I realise we're not likely to agree on this issue. All I can say is that no professional driver design/maker with experience would disagree with my statements on the issue of emittance to mass, relating to the production of most music. I fully accept that for some users, applying high mass subs will satisfy their musical tastes.
The makers mentioned in this thread as yet make no financial contribution to Diyaudio, nor do they offer any direct support to Diyaudio members. They don't pay my company for the promotion they get on the Markaudio forum. This forum's primary purpose is to support the application/use of Markaudio drivers. At the end of the day, I'm designing and making single-point source full-range drivers, bass capable in their own right to mostly serve purist type applications; So there's bound to be commercially acceptable limits on the Markaudio section. I'm certain you'll understand the degree of commercial vulnerability that Markaudio faces when exposed to this type of application dilution; And the personal frustration I feel in situations like these.
Given my medium-long term survival remains uncertain, I'm no longer able to facilitate this type of debate in depth. For those who want to ignore my professional advice, the lounge forum is the place to pursue these types of issue in greater depth.
Thanks
Mark.
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Question for Mark, or anyone else who cares to chime in for that matter. In looking at woofers and subwoofers to mate with the Alpairs is the low mass figure simply a matter of looking at the Mms, or are there other factors to consider for the low mass aspect of a given driver. I note for example that the Goldwood has a Mms of 121 grams, and the AE Dipole 18" has an Mms of 115 grams; whereas the Dayton DCS450-4 has 263 grams and the Dayton RSS450 is up at 426 grams. I would imagine along with other considerations there is some Sd to Mms ratio that one might factor in as a guideline.
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