Hi all,
Since my stereo set is quite outdated I went looking for options to renew it. The first thought was to go the easy way and buy a new complete set, straight of the shelf, but then almost by an accident I stumbled over this forum and saw all your lovely creations and started thinking of perhaps building my own speaker cabinets. In order to find a suitable project I have been reading a lot of different threads and you are all responsible for me not having time to sleep enough lately
Wow..! I am stunned by your skilled work! At first I was thinking of a sealed box or maybe a bass reflex cabinet. Then I suddenly got my eyes on back loaded horns and TL’s and MLTL’s with full range speakers. These were things that I didn’t even know existed and that really got me interested. And the more I read, the more aware I get of how little I know, and how much there still is to learn. Well, at this moment I still haven’t decided which way to go when and if I take the big leap into the DIY world. I suppose I first have to try to find out what it is that I really want and need, and in the meantime I’ll be admiring your fantastic creations. I have one question though (well, as a matter of fact I have nothing but questions..) For example a couple of Fostex FE206En speakers would cost me around 250 euro (including shipping), the material for BLH enclosures another 100 – 150 euro. Plus glue, paint or lacquer, cables, terminals etc.. And looking at the speakers you all have made I understand that you must have spent a whole lot of hours making them. For the same amount of money (and much less time) I would guess that one could get a pair of decent speakers from the store. Are DIY speakers so much better than the speakers found in the store, or is it just the feeling of creating something that makes the whole DIY speaker concept so interesting? This is perhaps a stupid question, but since I’ve never heard a DIY BLH or MLTL or TL speaker I don’t have a clue of what to expect and that is why I have to ask you that are more experienced. Why DIY?
Best regards,
P-H
Since my stereo set is quite outdated I went looking for options to renew it. The first thought was to go the easy way and buy a new complete set, straight of the shelf, but then almost by an accident I stumbled over this forum and saw all your lovely creations and started thinking of perhaps building my own speaker cabinets. In order to find a suitable project I have been reading a lot of different threads and you are all responsible for me not having time to sleep enough lately
Wow..! I am stunned by your skilled work! At first I was thinking of a sealed box or maybe a bass reflex cabinet. Then I suddenly got my eyes on back loaded horns and TL’s and MLTL’s with full range speakers. These were things that I didn’t even know existed and that really got me interested. And the more I read, the more aware I get of how little I know, and how much there still is to learn. Well, at this moment I still haven’t decided which way to go when and if I take the big leap into the DIY world. I suppose I first have to try to find out what it is that I really want and need, and in the meantime I’ll be admiring your fantastic creations. I have one question though (well, as a matter of fact I have nothing but questions..) For example a couple of Fostex FE206En speakers would cost me around 250 euro (including shipping), the material for BLH enclosures another 100 – 150 euro. Plus glue, paint or lacquer, cables, terminals etc.. And looking at the speakers you all have made I understand that you must have spent a whole lot of hours making them. For the same amount of money (and much less time) I would guess that one could get a pair of decent speakers from the store. Are DIY speakers so much better than the speakers found in the store, or is it just the feeling of creating something that makes the whole DIY speaker concept so interesting? This is perhaps a stupid question, but since I’ve never heard a DIY BLH or MLTL or TL speaker I don’t have a clue of what to expect and that is why I have to ask you that are more experienced. Why DIY?Best regards,
P-H
At this price point, DIY can definitely be better than what can be found at the store. Or in many cases allows you to work with theories and designs that have been nearly abandoned by commercial manufacturers.
Some of us also just enjoy the process of designing and building something (I make a lot of random things around the house anyway) - makes enjoying it that much more sweet to use the fruits of your own labor, even if it doesn't represent huge cost savings.
Some of us also just enjoy the process of designing and building something (I make a lot of random things around the house anyway) - makes enjoying it that much more sweet to use the fruits of your own labor, even if it doesn't represent huge cost savings.
You’re quite right about that. As far as I know I have never heard (or even seen) a back loaded horn in real life. Not in any shop nor at any other place and therefore I have no clue whatsoever of how it compares to a standard of-the-shelf multi way speaker. When reading about different full range projects most of the times people seem to be enthusiastic over the quality of the sound. This makes me wonder even more why full range speakers not are common in shops.
I too enjoy the process of creating things, and I guess that is what caught my interest for this forum in the first place. For some strange reason, despite the fact that I have no experience of full range speakers, the thought of a back loaded horn appeals to me. Hopefully I too will experience the magic of fullranger DIY some day
With DIY speakers you need to be prepared to change your idea, often frequently.
What looks OK on paper often can be disappointing in reality. With a bit of luck and loads of experience you can certainly create a real masterpiece. However, don't expect your first DIY speaker to be an instant success nor particularly cheap.
What looks OK on paper often can be disappointing in reality. With a bit of luck and loads of experience you can certainly create a real masterpiece. However, don't expect your first DIY speaker to be an instant success nor particularly cheap.
The relative accessibility of designing a box with an FR driver, even with a few correction components, can make for very good result at a good price.
It is doable but less evident to have similar outstanding results for a good price with multiway speakers. I once was at a DIY happening, with several speaker designs on demo, well a few were great but for many of them I thought that you can get a better result in the shop for not much more money.
It is doable but less evident to have similar outstanding results for a good price with multiway speakers. I once was at a DIY happening, with several speaker designs on demo, well a few were great but for many of them I thought that you can get a better result in the shop for not much more money.
Karlson
I may suggest to make a Karlson speaker enclosure. I made 3 of them, two for 15" and one more for 12", plus a tweeter cone coaxial mounted using 4 pieces of hard wire, and the the results are greatly satisfactory: I can make a earthquake in my house with only 3 TDA 2006 (12W each one).
I may suggest to make a Karlson speaker enclosure. I made 3 of them, two for 15" and one more for 12", plus a tweeter cone coaxial mounted using 4 pieces of hard wire, and the the results are greatly satisfactory: I can make a earthquake in my house with only 3 TDA 2006 (12W each one).
A full range speaker can offer an exceptional experience on some, but not all or most, genres of music, but is generally limited in terms of output and bass response unless the box gets very big. Hoffman's Iron Law applies here. You can see that the trend in commercial designs and home theater is small boxes and subwoofers.
The general trends is smaller cabinets. This is why one doesn't commonly see horns as current designs.
Your Fostex example isn'y very representative since those drivers tend to be expensive for a relatively limited use. DIY can allow you to get a well performing multi-way design for significantly less than a comparably sounding commercial design IF you discount your time, AND you already have adeqaute tools to do the job. If it's going to be a one time affair rather than a hobby, then financially you're better off either commissioning someone or getting a commercial offering.
The general trends is smaller cabinets. This is why one doesn't commonly see horns as current designs.
Your Fostex example isn'y very representative since those drivers tend to be expensive for a relatively limited use. DIY can allow you to get a well performing multi-way design for significantly less than a comparably sounding commercial design IF you discount your time, AND you already have adeqaute tools to do the job. If it's going to be a one time affair rather than a hobby, then financially you're better off either commissioning someone or getting a commercial offering.
What does 400 euros get you in a commercial design? In the US, $500 of parts and materials give better performance than $1500 to $2000 USD (or more) worth of commercial product.
DIY is not all about money and savings really. It is more about the joy of creating your own. Which, when done right usually exceeds commercial systems in quality and value.
However be aware that this is not an easy journey to make especially when you talk about high efficiency full range systems based on drivers like FE206E. They are special and magical in many ways but also very quirky. If you google "full range shout" you will see what I mean. There is a lot of tweaking to be done before you get it right.
And most of them are not suited for all types of music and are especially revealing of bad recordings. So I would strongly urge you find a way to listen to some of them before you set out on the full range journey.
The notion of experiment and curiosity plays into the hobby. And it is a hobby: one which evolves. I have no electronic knowledge to speak of and so full range appealed to me to build. One esoteric magazine (Speakerbuilder) available at only one store got me started. Like you I was surprised and delighted in the variety of things shown in the DIY speakers that I never knew existed.
To minimize what I thought might be a 'big mistake' I started with small four inch drivers and particle board. The design was not random. It was based on theory from help here at DIY and the Full Range Driver forum hosted by Mr. James Melhuish. I've since experimented with a variety of builds but never strayed beyond the low end of driver prices and let the design of the box tell if it was a success.
To minimize what I thought might be a 'big mistake' I started with small four inch drivers and particle board. The design was not random. It was based on theory from help here at DIY and the Full Range Driver forum hosted by Mr. James Melhuish. I've since experimented with a variety of builds but never strayed beyond the low end of driver prices and let the design of the box tell if it was a success.
well, the fact that someone has taken the time to register and post on a forum sub-set such as this ( i.e. the FR section) would suggest that they're close to dipping their toe in the pool
I'd always suggest starting in the shallow end with a simple small ( 4" or so) driver in the $30-40 range before climbing the ladder to the 10 meter board ( way too easy to spend 100 times that amount still on pairs of "single" drivers - see Voxativ / Feastrex, etc)
I'd always suggest starting in the shallow end with a simple small ( 4" or so) driver in the $30-40 range before climbing the ladder to the 10 meter board ( way too easy to spend 100 times that amount still on pairs of "single" drivers - see Voxativ / Feastrex, etc)
Early on in the hobby it may be difficult for some to distinguish between audio and furniture. You don't listen to furniture. And so whether the object is "shiny" (pleasant veneers, solid wood and special finishes like piano black) or functionally audibly better can produce prejudice for the "fine furniture" approach. Right now I see some of the shiny stuff above and below in advertising windows on the forum.
You can buy some commercial speakers that give decent performance. For many people that is good enough, easy enough and meets their spending limits.
But commercial examples are the product of some real-world realities. To be sucessful in the marketplace a manufacturer has some very limiting design constraints that are flaunted at their financial peril.
There can be no forrays into designs that dont fit the rectangular box consumers have been conditioned to accept. A DIY design is free to explore the full gamut of possible topologies.
There will be parts count limits on the commercial design. There is no incentive to explore crossover parts that may offer sonic benefits when such mundane realities as shipping bulky boxes across the nation or the continents comprise as much of the retail price as the Bill Of Materials alone does. The reseller's ( real, not imagined and broadly reasonable given the costs of retailing to the public) markup may equal the build cost. The cabinet may need to be offered in a variety of finishes, all of which must be managed by inventory at every point until the product reaches the consumers living room.
None of these costs truly contribute to the final products fundamental suitability to its intended function as an audio component. So it is simply incorrect to assume a commercial product cannot be equaled or exceeded by a DIY design, even when that DIY builder finds his component costs to be double the large scale manufacturers.
Finally there is the obvious advantage of choice and getting what the builder really wants rather than choosing from a limited set of commercial offerings.
There are other less measurable benefits that come from doing things yourself. Skills are honed or acquired, for example.
But commercial examples are the product of some real-world realities. To be sucessful in the marketplace a manufacturer has some very limiting design constraints that are flaunted at their financial peril.
There can be no forrays into designs that dont fit the rectangular box consumers have been conditioned to accept. A DIY design is free to explore the full gamut of possible topologies.
There will be parts count limits on the commercial design. There is no incentive to explore crossover parts that may offer sonic benefits when such mundane realities as shipping bulky boxes across the nation or the continents comprise as much of the retail price as the Bill Of Materials alone does. The reseller's ( real, not imagined and broadly reasonable given the costs of retailing to the public) markup may equal the build cost. The cabinet may need to be offered in a variety of finishes, all of which must be managed by inventory at every point until the product reaches the consumers living room.
None of these costs truly contribute to the final products fundamental suitability to its intended function as an audio component. So it is simply incorrect to assume a commercial product cannot be equaled or exceeded by a DIY design, even when that DIY builder finds his component costs to be double the large scale manufacturers.
Finally there is the obvious advantage of choice and getting what the builder really wants rather than choosing from a limited set of commercial offerings.
There are other less measurable benefits that come from doing things yourself. Skills are honed or acquired, for example.
Or one of the growing number of flat-paks, which allow you to build a loudspeaker with minimal tools.
Before suggestions can be made, the usual brace of questions, room size, amps, music taste & how you like to listen.
dave
I have little doubt that that is true. I firmly believe that the best 2-way is such an arrangement, FR + helper woofer. And the helper woofer can be your 2nd project.
DIY is like cookies, hard to have just 1.
BTW, the Frugel-Horn Mk3 (FH3) is probably the speaker that is leading the surge in flat-pak speaker kits.
It is also very versatile, allowing a change in its personality with a change in driver -- one of the few boxes where a wide range of drivers is not heresy.
dave
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