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Old 26th January 2011, 03:49 PM   #41
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borispm View Post
GM, do you mean the pre-amps/receivers we use have some sort of built-in equalizer to compensate for the Fletcher-Munson curve?
It certainly was the case during my formative years in this hobby (late 60-70s) that the loudness compensation attempted to resolve this hearing sensitivity issue.

One of the more innovative that encountered was by Yamaha that incorporated dual controls. You set the "volume" to maximum anticipated listening level with the "variable loudness" control at full, and then dialed back the second control for quieter levels. This was much more intuitive than it sounds, and was certainly more refined in the degree of compensation compared to that other typical mainstream products on the shelf ( Marantz, Sony, Sansui, Pioneer, etc). Particularly beneficial with higher efficiency ported speakers such as the JBL, Marantz, large Sansuis, etc, which may have sounded fine played at "realistic concert levels" in large showrooms shared with dozens of other systems, but could get very boomy very quickly at lower volume levels in customer's real rooms at home.

It's been a while (15+yrs) since I actually used the tone or loudness controls on any piece of gear I've owned that actually had them (mostly "surround" receivers), so I can't speak to what is incorporated into today's products.


Quote:

By the way if they do not have built-in equalizers, I still can't agree that listening below 70dB can judge tonal balance easily unless you have a reference, say you listened to a certain loudspeaker that you find "neutral" at higher SPL and you remember the sound signature of that speaker in lower SPL, which is, IMO, not easy at all!
relying on "acoustic memory" is certainly tricky, but we probably do it a lot more than we acknowledge


On the general subject of listening levels, I'm not particularly interested in debating the issue of ideal levels at which to judge any system performance parameter ( I suspect that conversation could run hundreds of posts). I would like to note that my habits have certainly changed over the last 40 yrs, and despite age related hearing loss and raging tinnitus, am now quite happy in the 75-85 dB (average) range. No doubt that is a major factor in my satisfaction with small full range systems and moderately low amplifier power levels.
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Old 26th January 2011, 05:10 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree since they use to put an adjustable 'loudness' control on pre-amps/receivers to boost the highs and lows to present a tonally balanced response at lower SPLs due to how we attenuate these BWs to allow for good speech intelligibility in our most acute hearing BW all the way down to whisper levels if the ambient noise level isn't too high.

GM
haha the world would be a boring place without opinions! on this side of the pond, and in my experience at least, the 'Audiophile' thinking was against such EQ, including Bass and treble Pots....maybe im stuck in my ways but i still agree with that philosophy.

yes i still have a receiver with the function. its not as bad as most, since the eq is graduated until the amp switches from class A to AB, after which the control is defeated.
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Old 26th January 2011, 11:51 PM   #43
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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tone controls are from a period with poorly designed speakers
thats what it is to me

I remember once I had to choose between two cheaper head phones
I picked the one on which I could detect the blurring when I switched in a larger parametric EQ

maybe new technology is better
I know nothing about that

one time I heard significant improvement when removing an input selector switch, making it a one signal source only
its just not very practical in daily use

is it "audiophile" ?
well, to me it has nothing to do with that
its just what I prefer to live with
or without, to be precise

hey, Im from the time when a loudness bottom was a new thing, and spectacular
all my friends loved it
anyone else but me

its funny, but the most preferred speakers in town were quaterwaves with 8" fullrange
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Old 27th January 2011, 01:18 AM   #44
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
tone controls are from a period with poorly designed speakers
....
Oh! I thought that's for our poorly designed hearing, no?
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Old 27th January 2011, 02:31 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
tone controls are from a period with poorly designed speakers....
And you speakers are perfectly balanced at all power levels?

Bob
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Old 27th January 2011, 05:16 PM   #46
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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The amusement with which I personally view the extremist fringe of audiophilia results from a combination of working in the trade for a few years, (even though it's been " a while", human nature hasn't changed, just the number of digits preceding the decimal point), being willingly codependent with my local "pusher" for several decades, and thanks to the internet, reading sites like 6moons, etc. ( I mean, for example - hand made, directional, gold plated, cryotreated, audiophile power fuses @ $40 a piece, or "pebbles"? - give me a break)

Too deny that some (all?) of us get carried away with the hobby or wrapped up in our self-importance is, well human nature too - I've been much more at ease since accepting that.
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Old 27th January 2011, 06:29 PM   #47
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
And you speakers are perfectly balanced at all power levels?

Bob
yes sir

but I know it aint that easy

I build my own speakers, in my listening room
and they stay there, in the same place
I started doing that out of frustration
my hunting for better sound is over
now its just fun, and a hobby
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Old 27th January 2011, 07:11 PM   #48
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I have a pair of old Jensen bass reflex speakers. They have full range 12 inch drivers, and BOY are they efficient. I don't know the efficiency number, but it must be high! I'm running a tube amp now, but I used to run them with a 10W chip amp. I could raise the roof with volume, and the amp's heat sink wouldn't even get warm. (These babies are also very dynamic. I suspect Dynamics and Efficiency go together, is this true?) I'm not a speaker expert by any means, but for efficiency I would recommend:

Large driver & Large Bass Reflex cab

Does full range have a leg up in efficiency? How much attenuation does a crossover have?

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Bobby Dipole
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Old 27th January 2011, 07:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
yes sir

but I know it aint that easy

I build my own speakers, in my listening room
and they stay there, in the same place
I started doing that out of frustration
my hunting for better sound is over
now its just fun, and a hobby
OK, perhaps a little snarky.

Mine aren't and I have preset 3,6, and12 dB loudness curves in the DSP chain. I do not use any passive EQ, so I have presets for each of my speakers. The base EQ is for ~75dB at the listening position.

And I'll allow you that a well damped room does wonders. Unfortunately SWMBO has dictated the space I can use and it is definitely not ideal.

Bob
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Old 27th January 2011, 08:17 PM   #50
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In my opinion, the best way for loudspeaker efficiency is the most possible adaption at the resistance from the air.
At the Loudspeaker adaptation website, the problem is described very simple.

H.
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