fwater said:
Pretreat + EnABL. Have to get a listen stock and decide what to pretreat the whizzer with.
I've made the assumption that the OB version has the same VC size as the BetsyK. A 1st look at those and it is likely the FE167 plugs will fit.
I usually just use ductseal there -- it's affects are basket wide. The wide basket legs (and plenty of room) could use some damping.
dave
Ftwater,
I'm glad you're having fun. Have you tried crossing the axis in front of you? The nice thing about the OB's is that playing with toe in is easy. Not so with my BIB's . . . I don't know how much break-in you've got on 'em, but I'd pound 'em for awhile prior to messing with the whizzer, etc. They will change a bit.
Let me know what you come up as you tweak the OB. I was really surprised by how much the baffle moves. Mass loading sure might help. I've gotta' think that we're losing some bass definition to that mechanical vibration. If I didn't hate MDF so much, I'd think a sandwich of MDF and ply would be ideal here.
Dave,
Let me know what you think of the Betsy's when you start playing with 'em! I picked up a pair of Realistic Minimus 8's at a Ham Fest today. They've got a ceramic 40-1197 type of fullrange in 'em. Interesting stuff. They have some weirdness in the midrange that I was surprised by. Cute little things. No bass in the stock sealed boxes. I've been looking for some Frugalhorn drivers!
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
I'm glad you're having fun. Have you tried crossing the axis in front of you? The nice thing about the OB's is that playing with toe in is easy. Not so with my BIB's . . . I don't know how much break-in you've got on 'em, but I'd pound 'em for awhile prior to messing with the whizzer, etc. They will change a bit.
Let me know what you come up as you tweak the OB. I was really surprised by how much the baffle moves. Mass loading sure might help. I've gotta' think that we're losing some bass definition to that mechanical vibration. If I didn't hate MDF so much, I'd think a sandwich of MDF and ply would be ideal here.
Dave,
Let me know what you think of the Betsy's when you start playing with 'em! I picked up a pair of Realistic Minimus 8's at a Ham Fest today. They've got a ceramic 40-1197 type of fullrange in 'em. Interesting stuff. They have some weirdness in the midrange that I was surprised by. Cute little things. No bass in the stock sealed boxes. I've been looking for some Frugalhorn drivers!
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
pjanda1 said:
No mods to change the voicing until I get some real time on them. Right now, it's the standard basket stuff that presumably can have no negative impact. I came up with some slick ideas...
Interestingly, these baffles transmit vibration less than another set from the past that is 50% thicker. I suspect it is the lamination (layering) method I am trying. They do, however, wiggle enough to lead me to believe that is affects output and clarity in the low range, maybe even higher than I first thought. Logic tells me that vibration anywhere but the cone can only result in loss of accoustic energy. I will try a few different ways to use inertia to my advantage.
Listenning impressions after a few (30?) more hours- gettin' better! Hard to describe, you can just tell that the character of these guys is going somewhere. Probably the placebo effect, but notable whether imagined or real. More tinkering today.
just fooling around - BetsyK is very good on vocals - unfortunately when someone asked about fs and breakin- I gave one ~2 watts at 16Hz - no problem but a video player got stuck in my old Dell xp on top of the 16Hz and pumped in a lotta midrange - plus my NAD may have lost a channel - it popped one tinsel lead's solder joint off the cone's eyelet -- if can ever find solder then will see if it comes back to life
Freddi,
Dang, that's no fun. I'm kinda' surprised. I've left 'em flappin' for hours at 1/2-3/4" excursion with LF sinewaves and I haven't hurt one yet! Give me a holler and we'll see if we can't work somethin' out.
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
Dang, that's no fun. I'm kinda' surprised. I've left 'em flappin' for hours at 1/2-3/4" excursion with LF sinewaves and I haven't hurt one yet! Give me a holler and we'll see if we can't work somethin' out.
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
Has anyone messed around with cone treatments yet? If not can somebody point me in the right direction? I find the Betsy forward or otherwise edgy in the upper mid / lower treble (as indicated in the manufacturer's FR ghaph). This is a relatively minor complaint as it only rears it's head during noisy metal passages. Loosely packing fill behind the wizzer seems to allieviated this somewhat, but the change was more profound somewhere else in the midrange. Hard to describe what problem may have been eased, but a definite improvement IMHO. Simply a little better overall, but still not stellar up a little higher. What to do? Soften the wizzer and resign myself to a helper tweeter? Mod Podge on the cone / wizzer / both? Selectively adding small bits of mass aroung the suspected trouble areas (ala the small circles of felt I've seen on some other FRs)? Notch filter and be made fun of by my purist freinds?
It has been very interesting taking my time and trying to audition each little mod I perform on these as opposed to listen once and give them the whole treatment like I normally do. Adding mass to the frame worked as intended- noticably improved character in the bass and midbass regions with higher output. Felting the inside of the legs- more clarity, albeit a small amount, but noticable. Duct Seal on the frame- suprisingly improved transients in the low end (kick drums sound more like kick drums, toms more like toms). In fact, with all this hot-rodding, I would proclaim these speakers to be an excellent choice for jazz, orchestral, and the like. That is to say, good recordings demanding wide bandwidth and high dynamics. It's just the more, ahem, lively recordings that they start to dim ever so slightly. Whose got a suggestion? Bueller?
It has been very interesting taking my time and trying to audition each little mod I perform on these as opposed to listen once and give them the whole treatment like I normally do. Adding mass to the frame worked as intended- noticably improved character in the bass and midbass regions with higher output. Felting the inside of the legs- more clarity, albeit a small amount, but noticable. Duct Seal on the frame- suprisingly improved transients in the low end (kick drums sound more like kick drums, toms more like toms). In fact, with all this hot-rodding, I would proclaim these speakers to be an excellent choice for jazz, orchestral, and the like. That is to say, good recordings demanding wide bandwidth and high dynamics. It's just the more, ahem, lively recordings that they start to dim ever so slightly. Whose got a suggestion? Bueller?
Use a mechanic's stethoscope to find the point(s) where the irritating sounds are emanating, then dab them with Dammar, high solids latex paint or similar to quell them.
GM
GM
"Noisy metal passages" might be part of the problem. There's a reason I suggest that OB's are best with "intimate" music nearfield! (Though I find plenty of orchestral music to sound just fine.
Keep in mind that the max SPL on any 8" fullranger open baffle is pretty low. Anytime you can see the cone move (up close) on any OB, you are getting fairly high doppler distortion. Physics is a bugger (edit: that must be a curse word in some other country, as it ain't here!). My guess is that you're hearing distortion somewhere between 1-7k, so messing with the whizzer won't do you any good (not a heck of a lot happens above 7K, cymbals for example, but that doppler distortion won't be as noticeable with a harmonic structure like that). If you want to listen to stuff with lots of bass at a high volume, high pass that Betsy and get a big woofer!
pj
Keep in mind that the max SPL on any 8" fullranger open baffle is pretty low. Anytime you can see the cone move (up close) on any OB, you are getting fairly high doppler distortion. Physics is a bugger (edit: that must be a curse word in some other country, as it ain't here!). My guess is that you're hearing distortion somewhere between 1-7k, so messing with the whizzer won't do you any good (not a heck of a lot happens above 7K, cymbals for example, but that doppler distortion won't be as noticeable with a harmonic structure like that). If you want to listen to stuff with lots of bass at a high volume, high pass that Betsy and get a big woofer!
pj
Wow, I had no idea that the 'scopes were cheap! I guess I assumed and never looked. I've got plenty of parts shops, tool stores, etc. nearby to pick one up for less that 10 bucks.
Is the procedure as self-explanitory as it sounds? I venture to guess it would be listen at medium volume using some of the "offensive material", and hit those areas with some artist's black acrylic I have. This can be applied from the rear, no? These guys are kinda pretty, I lean toward keeping them that way. How about experimenting with the felt circles (intended for small chair legs) that I have to make a temporary fix and finalize a pattern, or would these cause a different effect than the latex?
pjanda1, I have a reasonable amount of confidence that I am within safe boundries (appropriate excursion) while hearing the edginess. I have a set of Goldwood 8003/8 that I've done a lot of monkeying around with, and they've turned out great, until you take advantage of their high x-max. Doppler distortion is easily identifiable to my ears. Pardon my arrogant assertion, but that's not what I'm hearing. I will say again that I am convinced these will smooth out with some massaging. BTW, nearfield, these are great. Farfield (10, 12, 15 feet), they are still great! The character changes a bit, but it is still musical and involving. Take note that the baffles are 24" high and 33" wide and still without "wings". I'm onto something here...
Is the procedure as self-explanitory as it sounds? I venture to guess it would be listen at medium volume using some of the "offensive material", and hit those areas with some artist's black acrylic I have. This can be applied from the rear, no? These guys are kinda pretty, I lean toward keeping them that way. How about experimenting with the felt circles (intended for small chair legs) that I have to make a temporary fix and finalize a pattern, or would these cause a different effect than the latex?
pjanda1, I have a reasonable amount of confidence that I am within safe boundries (appropriate excursion) while hearing the edginess. I have a set of Goldwood 8003/8 that I've done a lot of monkeying around with, and they've turned out great, until you take advantage of their high x-max. Doppler distortion is easily identifiable to my ears. Pardon my arrogant assertion, but that's not what I'm hearing. I will say again that I am convinced these will smooth out with some massaging. BTW, nearfield, these are great. Farfield (10, 12, 15 feet), they are still great! The character changes a bit, but it is still musical and involving. Take note that the baffles are 24" high and 33" wide and still without "wings". I'm onto something here...
poked lead back in the eyelet - low qms driver http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5649/betsyksolderz.gif
I have removed the dust caps on one pair. These are going to require a phase plug between my FE167 & B200 plugs. One also has to be careful that the whizzer does not come off. it is not very securely attached to the voice coil. I suggest addition of some bonding goo on the join on the outside before dustcap removal. I have to secure mine before proceeding further.
dave
dave
I want to follow up a bit on the "shout" comment. The Betsy's sound and behave very similarly to some other highly regarded fullrange speakers by manufacturers both large and small. They do not have perfectly flat response, and their peculiarities may bother some folks. Those folks will also be bothered by most other fullrange drivers. There are a few fullrangers that are "smoother", (especially a couple of recent smaller diameter, higher excursion designs) but many fans of the "fullrange sound" will describe those as "flat", "boring" or "unmusical" sounding.
Now, like most other drivers, the Betsy's do not like to be pushed far beyond their rated excursion. Sure, they make a bunch of sound at .5" pk-pk excursion, and some folks may even like it. However, the distortion of any made-for-audio driver is really high when xmax is dramatically exceeded. PA style drivers are a little different, as they are often built with more margin for abuse. Horses for courses.
I'm not here to judge anybody. Some folks like 8 ways speakers. Some folks like 130db. I just want to be sure that we're comparing apples to apples. What the Betsy's do well, they do as well as most any fullranger in the $50-200 range. My drivers do have some trade offs. They aren't pretty (but they are very well made). They aren't for back loaded horns or small vented boxes. Used as they were meant to be, I think they will pleasantly surprise most fans of single driver loudspeakers (which should be most everybody, IMO, but again, I ain't here to judge).
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
Now, like most other drivers, the Betsy's do not like to be pushed far beyond their rated excursion. Sure, they make a bunch of sound at .5" pk-pk excursion, and some folks may even like it. However, the distortion of any made-for-audio driver is really high when xmax is dramatically exceeded. PA style drivers are a little different, as they are often built with more margin for abuse. Horses for courses.
I'm not here to judge anybody. Some folks like 8 ways speakers. Some folks like 130db. I just want to be sure that we're comparing apples to apples. What the Betsy's do well, they do as well as most any fullranger in the $50-200 range. My drivers do have some trade offs. They aren't pretty (but they are very well made). They aren't for back loaded horns or small vented boxes. Used as they were meant to be, I think they will pleasantly surprise most fans of single driver loudspeakers (which should be most everybody, IMO, but again, I ain't here to judge).
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
The "Betsy and Boomer" design at Zilla Audio looks great. I just got a pair of Visaton B200's, but what I was looking for were the Betsy's (OB-friendly 8" driver). Boomer: http://www.zillaaudio.com/betsy-boomer.htm
I'd really like to get the Betsy + Boomer or a similar biamped OB setup going. I'm thinking of using my (still unfinished) tube amp on top and my chip amp on the bottom. I'd like to do an active crossover, as I'm sure that a high pass filter on the Betsy would keep excursion down and make much higher SPLs/lower distortion possible. I also wonder about going a little narrower, like a 14-15" baffle with short wings (2-3") and a pair of these woofers per side. The Qts. is high enough (maybe a little too high, but you could always go narrower) and they'd be quite a bit cheaper than the Alpha15! I'm sure Jeff/Zilla could sell them to you. I've also got some old 15" alnico organ woofers sitting around. I suspect the Qts. might be suitably high. Their Xmax is lower than ideal, though.
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
pj
www.wildburroaudio.com
PJ,
Those woofers are sold out.
The 4 Ohm's still show to be available. They spec identical to the GW 208's in both 4/8 Ohm versions. Price higher, but still inline w/ Alpha 15 price overall+ smaller baffle.
In your site you mention suitability for a BVR Re: the Betsy K. Which BVR did you have in mind? Scott or GM said a flat "NO" Re: the 1/2 Chang.....
You go man,
John
Those woofers are sold out.
The 4 Ohm's still show to be available. They spec identical to the GW 208's in both 4/8 Ohm versions. Price higher, but still inline w/ Alpha 15 price overall+ smaller baffle.In your site you mention suitability for a BVR Re: the Betsy K. Which BVR did you have in mind? Scott or GM said a flat "NO" Re: the 1/2 Chang.....
You go man,
John
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