Peter,
If you have access to poly butedene coated magnet wire, soluable in alcohol, use that. The coil will hold it's shape without support and vibration noises will cease. The two I have made both ran into sonic differences dependent upon flux gauss, so you should have a way to alter this factor. Otherwise the sound was surprisingly good. However, for one of the experiments, Romy the Cat of all people, we could not settle on a flux density that was a suitable balance of characteristics, so, somewhat frustrating.
Bud
If you have access to poly butedene coated magnet wire, soluable in alcohol, use that. The coil will hold it's shape without support and vibration noises will cease. The two I have made both ran into sonic differences dependent upon flux gauss, so you should have a way to alter this factor. Otherwise the sound was surprisingly good. However, for one of the experiments, Romy the Cat of all people, we could not settle on a flux density that was a suitable balance of characteristics, so, somewhat frustrating.
Bud
Hi Bud,
Sorry for the delay, just normal Christmas chaos. What were ballpark figures for your coils in terms of resistance/inductance? I've got the driver prepared for winding, luckily it's got vented pole piece so it will be easy in a drill.
Unfortunately dont have poly-butadiene coated wire to hand, so enamel has to be.
Peter.
Sorry for the delay, just normal Christmas chaos. What were ballpark figures for your coils in terms of resistance/inductance? I've got the driver prepared for winding, luckily it's got vented pole piece so it will be easy in a drill.
Unfortunately dont have poly-butadiene coated wire to hand, so enamel has to be.
Peter.
Thanks for asking, the Shokokuji "towers" with PMA4's were built in 2010 out of a combination of 3/4" and 1" baltic birch plywood and "Sumava" Granite. They're easy to build, the finish took more time than the build itself. Their size in combination with large flat surfaces contribute to that difficulty.
I haven't heard them for more than 2 years, but I will not forget the first time I heard them come alive, all amplifiers I have, both CD players, DACs and my entire CD collection (well a good size sample) were utilized until a sad parting of our ways... they're now in Denmark...
If you're looking for a design for the PMA4's I'd advise contacting Planet10, in this particular "genre" of loudspeaker, with its unique set of compromises, I've yet to hear anything that approaches this one.
I haven't heard them for more than 2 years, but I will not forget the first time I heard them come alive, all amplifiers I have, both CD players, DACs and my entire CD collection (well a good size sample) were utilized until a sad parting of our ways... they're now in Denmark...
If you're looking for a design for the PMA4's I'd advise contacting Planet10, in this particular "genre" of loudspeaker, with its unique set of compromises, I've yet to hear anything that approaches this one.
thanks for the reply.
I guess the design you built is similar to the blenheim from woden design : Woden Design | Blenheim
It's nice the project was a success as you were the first one to build it and weren't able to count on the feedback of other users.
Congratulations to you and planet10 for the design !
I have a lowther (EX3) in mauhorn V enclosure that I like a lot. I'm tempted by building this kind of design but would it be a real improvement sound wise ?
I mainly listen to classical and rock music. I like to listen to symphonic pieces and sometimes the lowther is a little bit "light" for this.
I guess the design you built is similar to the blenheim from woden design : Woden Design | Blenheim
It's nice the project was a success as you were the first one to build it and weren't able to count on the feedback of other users.
Congratulations to you and planet10 for the design !
I have a lowther (EX3) in mauhorn V enclosure that I like a lot. I'm tempted by building this kind of design but would it be a real improvement sound wise ?
I mainly listen to classical and rock music. I like to listen to symphonic pieces and sometimes the lowther is a little bit "light" for this.
front horn
to stay on the topic of no-holds barred lowther design, what do you think of this kind of system :
A front horn Le cleach expansion 95cm diameter and for the bass it's a double 15inch eminence beta on a kind of H-Frame enclosure. The horn is currently loaded with a fostex 206.
Unfortunately I have never listen to such system. Apparently the front horn gives more "body" to the music...and the 4 beta 15 give you more than enough bass.
but those beast are huge...and the system is a bit complicated (active crossover, 2 amplifiers)
to stay on the topic of no-holds barred lowther design, what do you think of this kind of system :
A front horn Le cleach expansion 95cm diameter and for the bass it's a double 15inch eminence beta on a kind of H-Frame enclosure. The horn is currently loaded with a fostex 206.
Unfortunately I have never listen to such system. Apparently the front horn gives more "body" to the music...and the 4 beta 15 give you more than enough bass.
but those beast are huge...and the system is a bit complicated (active crossover, 2 amplifiers)
Jamhorn,
I don't have the details of the design with me, here, but yes, the design looks very similar. I've not kept up with this forum so it may very well be the same. I did build them without feedback from this forum, and that's how I wanted it. There are a handful of people here who know what they're doing, who I "pm" with, and a truckload, truckloads actually, of people who echo opinions, based on what they googled...
I referred to the fact that each loudspeaker design has its own unique set of compromises. In my opinion these loudspeakers are not very well suited to symphonic pieces. They will do classical and rock music fairly well, but not at high volume levels.
If I were looking for an intimate, close quarters, uncomplicated emotive musical experience I would consider these loudspeakers.
to stay on the topic of no-holds barred lowther design, what do you think of this kind of system :
A front horn Le cleach expansion 95cm diameter and for the bass it's a double 15inch eminence beta on a kind of H-Frame enclosure. The horn is currently loaded with a fostex 206.
Unfortunately I have never listen to such system. Apparently the front horn gives more "body" to the music...and the 4 beta 15 give you more than enough bass.
but those beast are huge...and the system is a bit complicated (active crossover, 2 amplifiers)
I experimented quite a lot with the PMA4's and found that as soon as I considered a multi-way, multi-amped design I quickly found myself looking at other drivers, not full range, more suited, less distortion and so on. I've had similar experiences with other "full range" drivers with only very few exceptions.
One design I unfortunately never had a chance to experiment with due to manufacturing difficulties, was the front and back horn combination. All that said, if Symphony music is what you enjoy most, and you'd like an experience that approaches a live experience (studio / theater / opera house or otherwise) I'd choose another kind of design, with another set of compromises... there are always compromises...
Hi Bud
Any more news of this build? How did it go? Was it as good as expected? Furthermore, how do the enAbled AN Super 15 drivers compare to the Lowther PM6A? Just curious.
Thanks,
Deon
Planet 10 is only responsible for taking the designs from the designer (Scott Lindgren aka scottmoose) and make them into (i hope) readable & comprehensive plan drawings.
dave
Hi Bud
Any more news of this build? How did it go? Was it as good as expected? Furthermore, how do the enAbled AN Super 15 drivers compare to the Lowther PM6A? Just curious.
Thanks,
Deon
Well, a few years and concept revisions later, the initial build of the OB section looks something like below (reconfigured to match different woofer design) - I'm looking forward to making the trip to hear final results myself (and perhaps another crazy good Rene Jaeger amplifier) :
Attachments
Thank you Chris.
I just wish the rest of you could come and see the workmanship Chris and his crew of northern elves manage. I have, actually, quite a few examples by now and this latest is a testimony to his sense of compassion, forgiveness and humor.
As to the sound. Imagine a loudspeaker that isn't confined in any meaningful way and you have the start. Gen 2 EnABL has proven to be more than a match for the PM6A and the Delta 8, though that one has struggled long and hard. The sound is all of the usual cute phrases. Especially the one's about 90 db down coherence. Unconfined and ebullient come to mind. Sounding just like music and not at all like speakers might be the only drawback for some folks.
Even more fun, the measured response is just as correct. The graph below, taken by a Boeing engineer who frequents this site, is unsmoothed. He suggested an electrical phase correction Zobel for the Lowther and that was a remarkable step towards music. He has also suggested a notch filter for the 7 to 11 k hump. A -3 db notch yet to be applied. He also designs contest winning speaker systems that use series crossovers, which is what Jon VerHalen has provided for open baffle Lowther PM6A drivers and Tone Tubby Alnico 10" drivers. Works a charm here too, though there are some interesting absolute phase issues to work through. The second graph are his expected plots, not an actual measurement, though the FR plot is real enough.
These are mounted on a pair of Planet 10's superlative TL towers. Driven by a pair of inexpensive plate amps, with a few degrees of negative phase offset to match the time alignment of the Lowther and Delta 8, the system has a perfectly vertical time signature, so spatial placement is within an immense space and only confined by the recording character.
The Berringer has been sidelined for a bit. Another friend loaned a Nikko Beta 1 preamp from the 80's and an early version of a Berkley Audio DAC and the two are just rather to good not to use. The amp is an Audio Prism Debut. It goes under the knife for an uprated power transformer and level three OPT's some time soon. The parts will be in hand the middle of December but I have to shanghai yet another friend to perform the surgery. No doubt in my mind that this is currently the weakest link in the chain.
So, due to the friends I have, my dream system is close to completion. A little odd looking perhaps, but I don't listen to music through my eyes so I can forgive the insult to my sculptural sense. And, fairly soon, a single ended 300B amp, with a pp SS driver section and all transformer coupled, will be available to drive the Lowther, freeing the Audio Prism to drive the Delta 8 and perhaps some class D amps for the subs. Once again, starting up a round of efforts by friends to bring about an even more advanced working system. Line level crossovers, or MAYBE that Berkley DAC fellow can be convinced to design a 6 channel model..... he has looked interested more than once.
Bud
I just wish the rest of you could come and see the workmanship Chris and his crew of northern elves manage. I have, actually, quite a few examples by now and this latest is a testimony to his sense of compassion, forgiveness and humor.
As to the sound. Imagine a loudspeaker that isn't confined in any meaningful way and you have the start. Gen 2 EnABL has proven to be more than a match for the PM6A and the Delta 8, though that one has struggled long and hard. The sound is all of the usual cute phrases. Especially the one's about 90 db down coherence. Unconfined and ebullient come to mind. Sounding just like music and not at all like speakers might be the only drawback for some folks.
Even more fun, the measured response is just as correct. The graph below, taken by a Boeing engineer who frequents this site, is unsmoothed. He suggested an electrical phase correction Zobel for the Lowther and that was a remarkable step towards music. He has also suggested a notch filter for the 7 to 11 k hump. A -3 db notch yet to be applied. He also designs contest winning speaker systems that use series crossovers, which is what Jon VerHalen has provided for open baffle Lowther PM6A drivers and Tone Tubby Alnico 10" drivers. Works a charm here too, though there are some interesting absolute phase issues to work through. The second graph are his expected plots, not an actual measurement, though the FR plot is real enough.
These are mounted on a pair of Planet 10's superlative TL towers. Driven by a pair of inexpensive plate amps, with a few degrees of negative phase offset to match the time alignment of the Lowther and Delta 8, the system has a perfectly vertical time signature, so spatial placement is within an immense space and only confined by the recording character.
The Berringer has been sidelined for a bit. Another friend loaned a Nikko Beta 1 preamp from the 80's and an early version of a Berkley Audio DAC and the two are just rather to good not to use. The amp is an Audio Prism Debut. It goes under the knife for an uprated power transformer and level three OPT's some time soon. The parts will be in hand the middle of December but I have to shanghai yet another friend to perform the surgery. No doubt in my mind that this is currently the weakest link in the chain.
So, due to the friends I have, my dream system is close to completion. A little odd looking perhaps, but I don't listen to music through my eyes so I can forgive the insult to my sculptural sense. And, fairly soon, a single ended 300B amp, with a pp SS driver section and all transformer coupled, will be available to drive the Lowther, freeing the Audio Prism to drive the Delta 8 and perhaps some class D amps for the subs. Once again, starting up a round of efforts by friends to bring about an even more advanced working system. Line level crossovers, or MAYBE that Berkley DAC fellow can be convinced to design a 6 channel model..... he has looked interested more than once.
Bud
Attachments
Dave,
You and Scott are both to be congratulated. In a period where I was fairly active in building and testing Lowther and Fostex designs this one excelled in many areas. From ease of manufacturing to ease of sound... As strange as it may sound to some - where a nearly 2 meter high loudspeaker is concerned - this design did not sound "big", it sounded complete, intimate, detailed yet warm (which may subjectively be caused by the bass extension). I'm grateful for the design as well as the detailed plan, a very small amount of money very, very well spent. Thanks Again
Hi Bud
Thanks for the update. Very, very nice. I have a pair of Goodmans Axiom 201, and I wonder if these, de-whizzered and enAbled, could be used in place of the Eminence. We will have to wait and see.
Could you tell us which Lowthers you have treated and compare them to each other, and, if you will, why you chose the PM6A over the others? Did it just suit your purposes better? I see that now divers are treated with enAble gen 2, so could you tell us what is the difference that going from gen 1 to gen 2 made? Sorry for all the questions, but you have me very curious.
Thank you,
Deon
Thanks for the update. Very, very nice. I have a pair of Goodmans Axiom 201, and I wonder if these, de-whizzered and enAbled, could be used in place of the Eminence. We will have to wait and see.
Could you tell us which Lowthers you have treated and compare them to each other, and, if you will, why you chose the PM6A over the others? Did it just suit your purposes better? I see that now divers are treated with enAble gen 2, so could you tell us what is the difference that going from gen 1 to gen 2 made? Sorry for all the questions, but you have me very curious.
Thank you,
Deon
Have you given thought to the Lampizator DAC? I'm sure Lukasz could be convinced to do a 6-channel design. From what I have read, it should suit the rest of the system quite well. Lukasz is very approachable, so speak to him and see what he says.
Enjoy,
Deon
Have you given thought to the Lampizator DAC? I'm sure Lukasz could be convinced to do a 6-channel design. From what I have read, it should suit the rest of the system quite well. Lukasz is very approachable, so speak to him and see what he says.
Enjoy,
Deon
Deon,
I'm sure that Lukasz's Lampizator DAC is excellent, but the Berkeley Alpha DAC is very powerful competition for "any" DAC in existance. The only DAC that may be demonstrably better is the Pacific Microsonics Model 2 DAC, which was designed by most of the same people as the Berkeley and hasn't been made for a number of years. About 6-7 months ago, I saw that a Pacific Microsonic Model 2 sold for $15,000, which is what they cost new!
I seriously doubt that the Berkeley DAC will be withdrawn from Bud's system anytime soon!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hi Terry
I don't know the Berkeley DAC, but I did recognize the name from what I have read, mostly in reviews of the Lampizator DAC. All had good things to say about the Berkeley, but all preffered the Lamp. Here are a couple of exerpts from people who compared both:
First is from a post called LampizatOr Level 4 thoughts (review)
My DAC history, I started out with a Bel Canto 2, then Audio Logic MXL34, Dodson 218 MKII,* Accustic Arts MK4, and the last DAC was a Berkeley Alpha DAC and now the LampizatOr L4.* This DAC progression provided modest improvements along the way but I was not ready for Lamp L4.* Having ordered this DAC without hearing it first I was a little apprehensive to say the least.* As soon as you turn it on day one minute one you know it is something very special.
Again it is almost impossible to sit down and analyze* this DAC, it won't let you* you get to involved with the music, your feet start tapping, your body starts swaying and in some parts a tear might roll down your cheek.* When I use to listen to music thoughts would roll around in my mind like, I wonder what the big VTL tube amps would sound like or I would love to hear the TAD speakers on my gear or should I use a preamp or lightspeed attenuator or does the munddorf crossovers or Sonic cap crossovers sound better, just different thoughts on how to get the best possible sound out of your system.* So the long and the short of it is this............here is my review>
This DAC simply removes all of the components from your system* * You have no thoughts as to your gear (believe it or not)* .* Don't think about the gear, don't care about the gear .* The music is live, organic, completely detailed and just flows .
Anyone in the Dallas area is welcome to come over for a listen just send me a PM.* Next year I will be redoing my listening room and that should be the final touch.* Art has recommended an engineer for the job.
Digital is changing almost daily it seems, and investments in digital equipment can seem a waste of money.* The Lamp L4 DAC while not cheap, is a true value purchase and will be for years to come.
*My Lamp L4 is balanced, has AES, SPDIF, 32bit USB and remote volume with 10db of gain in the analog output stage.* Is there a better DAC on the planet, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm* you know what I don't care anymore.*
Another from the Lampizator forum called Great new Level 4 review from Playintheblues:
Well the L4+ has been on it's perch now for about a week, what a joy to welcome home an old friend. In an effort to save some money and simplify (three boxes down to one) my system, I regrettably sold my L5 a while back.
During my time without the Lamp I demoed many DACs, the most notable being the Berkeley II. This is when I really started missing my Lamp, much like lusting over a love lost. One that could not be replaced with the next latest and greatest. Thank you Norman for being the liaison between Lukasz and me helping to facilitate the new L4+.
I must mention that the Berkeley was my favorite prior to the Lamp. When I demoed the new model II it just sounded dry. Now all the detail was there but the music was lifeless. I had owned the original Berkeley for over a year prior to the Lamp and thought it was the best DAC I ever had in my system but the Lamp had literally ruined me? My previous DACs in order have been Bel Canto 2, Audio Logic, Dodson 218 and Accustic Arts.
Thank you Lukasz, you have some how managed to do what most others cannot. That is...transparency and musicality. The reviews people read are accurate, but the reviewers are so blown away with the Lamp their reviews tend to be overly complimentry and I think this is what is scaring some folks away, and that is a shame. Lukasz has spent years on the R&D for this DAC yet still doesn't get enough credit, but I digress.
The Berkeley and from what I read, the DCS Debussy may in fact have some more detail and I do say may. But the sacrifice of musicality is far too great. Having said that I am getting great detail from the Lamp and feel like I am in the room with the musicians, it is truly amazing.
Very few things move the heart and soul like the Lamp. Now I feel the same way about my wife and I am sure she wouldn't move everyone's heart and soul (probably a good thing) like she does mine. My point being I am sure the Lamp isn't for everyone, nothing is. For those of us who are moved by the Lamp it is a revelation, I strongly encourage a Lamp audition! Give it a few days in your system and then put your DAC back in. You will know instantly in fact you may already know after listening to the Lamp for a couple of days if it is going to stay or not.
My recommendation stands, with no disrespect to the Berkeley.
Enjoy,
Deon
Thank you for the DAC suggestion Deon. Please understand that Terry has a personal loyalty to Rene', the Pacific Microsonics, Grass Valley, and Berkely designer. As do I, Rene' is a good friend to both of us....even though Terry is Norwegian and thus a rather suspect character.
Rene' was just here and we were discussing where to go with this issue. His comment was that he thought the Sabre chips were the DAC to use, but that the real work and artistry came with how you handled the input and output analog circuitry. His comment was that he was already working on tis issue and for me to just buy a Buffalo Dac that can be configured for up to 8 channel output and we would figure out the rest.
For that matter I have 20+ DAC buffer transformers sitting on my overstock shelf. Well characterized and ready made. So, I guess if I was going to actually spend money on a DAC, something I haven't been faced with just yet, I would follow Rene's suggestions. He is a personal friend and does just live down the hill and is responsible for some astounding bits of gear not related to digital.
As he very clearly demonstrated while he was here it is the filter you choose to use with a specific frequency and word length, that is of immense importance. The Berkley I have here allows 8 different filter choices, which does rather swamp the issue and certainly demonstrates his point.
As for Lowther choices. I have treated a pair of DX4, a pair of A45 and four pair of PM6A, two with 15 ohm silver voice coil and two with 8 ohm copper voice coil. Of them, the PM6A 15 ohm silver voice coil had the most resolution, the DX4 had by far the most dynamic presentation and the A45 desperately needed a Le Cleach horn attached. Only the PM6A seemed comfortable in a nude state.
As for a comparison between treated PM6A and treated 15 inch Audio Nirvana, I think I still prefer the Lowther. The preference is much thinner than it is with any of the other AN products that have flowed through my hands. I am quite sure that, with some FR support or multiple driver support the AN15 would be more impressive than the Lowther with Delta 8 support and TL subs. But, my personal taste runs to a contemplative system rather than to an impressive one and space taken up by the speaker system is an issue in my life. I would not hesitate to recommend either speaker.
Bud
Rene' was just here and we were discussing where to go with this issue. His comment was that he thought the Sabre chips were the DAC to use, but that the real work and artistry came with how you handled the input and output analog circuitry. His comment was that he was already working on tis issue and for me to just buy a Buffalo Dac that can be configured for up to 8 channel output and we would figure out the rest.
For that matter I have 20+ DAC buffer transformers sitting on my overstock shelf. Well characterized and ready made. So, I guess if I was going to actually spend money on a DAC, something I haven't been faced with just yet, I would follow Rene's suggestions. He is a personal friend and does just live down the hill and is responsible for some astounding bits of gear not related to digital.
As he very clearly demonstrated while he was here it is the filter you choose to use with a specific frequency and word length, that is of immense importance. The Berkley I have here allows 8 different filter choices, which does rather swamp the issue and certainly demonstrates his point.
As for Lowther choices. I have treated a pair of DX4, a pair of A45 and four pair of PM6A, two with 15 ohm silver voice coil and two with 8 ohm copper voice coil. Of them, the PM6A 15 ohm silver voice coil had the most resolution, the DX4 had by far the most dynamic presentation and the A45 desperately needed a Le Cleach horn attached. Only the PM6A seemed comfortable in a nude state.
As for a comparison between treated PM6A and treated 15 inch Audio Nirvana, I think I still prefer the Lowther. The preference is much thinner than it is with any of the other AN products that have flowed through my hands. I am quite sure that, with some FR support or multiple driver support the AN15 would be more impressive than the Lowther with Delta 8 support and TL subs. But, my personal taste runs to a contemplative system rather than to an impressive one and space taken up by the speaker system is an issue in my life. I would not hesitate to recommend either speaker.
Bud
Suspect Character is it?
FWIW: Bud and I know many of the same people and I can't recall one of them that isn't considered suspect!