VIX, you are welcome, just PM me before your visit!
Now guys, don't laugh much at what is following!
1. Today I found out that both my woofers were connected with opposite polarity
2. One of the filters for the woofers was connected with the inductance's upper layer as "IN" and the inside as "OUT" and the other was the opposite - I must mention that both were on the + wire
3. I connected both inductances in a way that the outer layer is now "IN" and the inner is "OUT"
4. I connected both woofers from opposite polarity to normal, now + comes from the amp, gets in the inductance from the outside wire, gets out of the inductance from the inner wire and goes to the + terminal of the woofer=
5. Capacitors are intact and are in parallel after the inductance - just to mention...
6. I removed one of the 22mf capacitors and now I have 132mf in parallel instead of 154 before - I doubt that this is the cause thou...
7. And now I have no bass 
it's weak resemblance of what it was
I assume something might be magnetized in the opposite way due to the long listening with opposite polarity. Is possible the core of the reversed inductance to be magnetized in the wrong direction and now to need some time?
What do you think?
In the before condition I had noticed that the bass is stronger from the back of the H-frames, but thought that it should be that way... Now it's weaker from both sides
I'm desperate!
p.s. now the sound is clearer and the sound stage improved dramaticly - positioning is far-far better... but the bass...
Now guys, don't laugh much at what is following!
1. Today I found out that both my woofers were connected with opposite polarity
2. One of the filters for the woofers was connected with the inductance's upper layer as "IN" and the inside as "OUT" and the other was the opposite
- I must mention that both were on the + wire 3. I connected both inductances in a way that the outer layer is now "IN" and the inner is "OUT"
4. I connected both woofers from opposite polarity to normal, now + comes from the amp, gets in the inductance from the outside wire, gets out of the inductance from the inner wire and goes to the + terminal of the woofer=
5. Capacitors are intact and are in parallel after the inductance - just to mention...
6. I removed one of the 22mf capacitors and now I have 132mf in parallel instead of 154 before - I doubt that this is the cause thou...
7. And now I have no bass
it's weak resemblance of what it was I assume something might be magnetized in the opposite way due to the long listening with opposite polarity. Is possible the core of the reversed inductance to be magnetized in the wrong direction and now to need some time?
What do you think?
In the before condition I had noticed that the bass is stronger from the back of the H-frames, but thought that it should be that way... Now it's weaker from both sides
I'm desperate!
p.s. now the sound is clearer and the sound stage improved dramaticly - positioning is far-far better... but the bass...
Phase wise, the LF precedes the mids, etc., so if all drivers were wired phase correct, the tweeter would be furthest away from the listening position (LP) and the (sub) woofer closest, or even behind it depending on the system's band-width (BW) and how close the LP is to the tweeter, etc..
From a simplistic POV then, if the (sub)woofer is ~on the same plane referenced to the LP it needs to be wired in opposite polarity referenced to the 'HF' driver it's XO'd to and why the rule-of-thumb (ROT) to swap a driver's leads and leave it the way it sounds loudest came about.
If multi-amping and the sub's amp has an adjustable phase pot it can be dialed in a bit more accurately, i.e. louder. Note that with 4th order XOs there's a 1 Hz phase shift, so normally there's no audible increase in loudness, though depending on your phase hearing acuity you may find one polarity or setting sounds subjectively a bit more 'right'.
WRT inductor wiring, sound is AC, so it shouldn't matter which way they are connected. Indeed, I can't recall ever seeing any markings on one that implied a polarity.
Bottom line, it 'sounds' like you had it right the first time.
GM
From a simplistic POV then, if the (sub)woofer is ~on the same plane referenced to the LP it needs to be wired in opposite polarity referenced to the 'HF' driver it's XO'd to and why the rule-of-thumb (ROT) to swap a driver's leads and leave it the way it sounds loudest came about.
If multi-amping and the sub's amp has an adjustable phase pot it can be dialed in a bit more accurately, i.e. louder. Note that with 4th order XOs there's a 1 Hz phase shift, so normally there's no audible increase in loudness, though depending on your phase hearing acuity you may find one polarity or setting sounds subjectively a bit more 'right'.
WRT inductor wiring, sound is AC, so it shouldn't matter which way they are connected. Indeed, I can't recall ever seeing any markings on one that implied a polarity.
Bottom line, it 'sounds'
like you had it right the first time.GM
Thank you GM! Now I'l try to reverse the polarity of the midrange and see what happens.
Peterborsson, Ivan Vulchev has been the leading professor and scientist in our country. There is probability that VLD-40 is his invention - I'l ask him, he lives nearby... My tweeters are something like far relatives of VLD, like EVO-5.
There are two or even three problems with them:
1. Hard to crossover, they need steep curves
2. Capricious on crossover components - one crappy capacitor and you'l hear it!
3. Capricious on recording... If there is noise you hear it, due to the high bandwidth if there is something outside the recording, but within your hrearing range you hear it, if the cymbals are too loud, they will be too loud, if you are unfortunate to buy some records mastered for tube amps, you are lost!
Peterborsson, Ivan Vulchev has been the leading professor and scientist in our country. There is probability that VLD-40 is his invention - I'l ask him, he lives nearby... My tweeters are something like far relatives of VLD, like EVO-5.
There are two or even three problems with them:
1. Hard to crossover, they need steep curves
2. Capricious on crossover components - one crappy capacitor and you'l hear it!
3. Capricious on recording... If there is noise you hear it, due to the high bandwidth if there is something outside the recording, but within your hrearing range you hear it, if the cymbals are too loud, they will be too loud, if you are unfortunate to buy some records mastered for tube amps, you are lost!
Thanks T101,
I had some friends that used VLD40 with a horn, I'm not sure as they were sold under Gamma brand. They were called VLD12 and VLD13.
Edit: They were VLD13, not VLD40!
In my friends speakers, x-over was at 3.5 kHz with 2nd order filter and replacements of foil were often needed , minimum 3rd order would maybe be sufficient. Quite good tweeters for the prize, especially if bought in Bulgaria.
Peter
I had some friends that used VLD40 with a horn, I'm not sure as they were sold under Gamma brand. They were called VLD12 and VLD13.
Edit: They were VLD13, not VLD40!
In my friends speakers, x-over was at 3.5 kHz with 2nd order filter and replacements of foil were often needed , minimum 3rd order would maybe be sufficient. Quite good tweeters for the prize, especially if bought in Bulgaria.
Peter
Last edited:
Hi to all! I found the bass!
It occurs that when the OB part is smaller, the bass is weaker... at leat it is weaker when there is a wall behind the H-frame...
I made another OB with Fane Sovereign 6-100 and again with NDRL ribbon tweeters. The clarity and positioning with the new smaller OB's are great! The details are much more and the scene is very accurate.
I apply the the schematics of the crossover of the new OB.
I must point that all my problems with the bass were with the new smaller OB!
Additionally I found out that the Goldwood must be connected IN PHASE and with the signal entering the inner layer of the inductance and exiting the inductance through the outer layer!
I returned the 7-th 22 mf capacitor and now again the capacitance in the low pass is 154mf.
Now with the inductances connected right and with the Goldwoods in phase and the big OB on top the bass is TREMENDOUS! Low as it could be and loud as it could be! FINALLY!
There is only one catch in my particular listening room - the listener must be at least 12 feet away in order to hear all the depth of the bass...
If someobe is interested I can upload the drawing with the dimensions of the small OB... sadly it does not work for me as it permits cancellation of the reflected wave in front of the H-frame... But for someone with more space behind the H-frame it would be GREAT! I have put allot effort to make it sing right and I will be glad to know that someone obliged from my work!
Best regards!
It occurs that when the OB part is smaller, the bass is weaker... at leat it is weaker when there is a wall behind the H-frame...
I made another OB with Fane Sovereign 6-100 and again with NDRL ribbon tweeters. The clarity and positioning with the new smaller OB's are great! The details are much more and the scene is very accurate.
I apply the the schematics of the crossover of the new OB.
I must point that all my problems with the bass were with the new smaller OB!
Additionally I found out that the Goldwood must be connected IN PHASE and with the signal entering the inner layer of the inductance and exiting the inductance through the outer layer!
I returned the 7-th 22 mf capacitor and now again the capacitance in the low pass is 154mf.
Now with the inductances connected right and with the Goldwoods in phase and the big OB on top the bass is TREMENDOUS! Low as it could be and loud as it could be! FINALLY!
There is only one catch in my particular listening room - the listener must be at least 12 feet away in order to hear all the depth of the bass...
If someobe is interested I can upload the drawing with the dimensions of the small OB... sadly it does not work for me as it permits cancellation of the reflected wave in front of the H-frame... But for someone with more space behind the H-frame it would be GREAT! I have put allot effort to make it sing right and I will be glad to know that someone obliged from my work!
Best regards!
Attachments
The point was that, concerning the limited size of the room, and the WAF tendency to push the speakers out of the way (close to the rear wall) does not do much favor to the depth of the sound that OB's are capable for. One of the alternatives, in my case (room) would be a BiB, since it would be stuck in corners...
>>> One of the alternatives, in my case (room) would be a BiB, since it would be stuck in corners...
Vix, the BIB and the OB speakers i have in my small room both sound amazing. The BIBs like corners and that's it... done. Maybe you will toe in a bit or not but the bass fills in nicest in corners. OB is room placement dependent. Toeing in just a few inches could totally change how the bass fills up your room. Once you nail the room placement (which may be two feet into the room and away from corners) you might not like what you see. Funny how pushing OB closer to walls could reduce bass... you have to experiment. I LOVE both types of speaker and could live with either. But since i like to build i can try different types of speakers. One day i may even go back to a sealed or ported design... Amazing how a big flat open back speaker can produce so much bass... but most of us are using 15 and 18 inch woofers! Building a BIB (or any good back horn) makes me feel like i am building a musical instrument. Enjoy whatever you make!
Godzilla
Vix, the BIB and the OB speakers i have in my small room both sound amazing. The BIBs like corners and that's it... done. Maybe you will toe in a bit or not but the bass fills in nicest in corners. OB is room placement dependent. Toeing in just a few inches could totally change how the bass fills up your room. Once you nail the room placement (which may be two feet into the room and away from corners) you might not like what you see. Funny how pushing OB closer to walls could reduce bass... you have to experiment. I LOVE both types of speaker and could live with either. But since i like to build i can try different types of speakers. One day i may even go back to a sealed or ported design... Amazing how a big flat open back speaker can produce so much bass... but most of us are using 15 and 18 inch woofers! Building a BIB (or any good back horn) makes me feel like i am building a musical instrument. Enjoy whatever you make!
Godzilla
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for nice words and your support. I fully agree with every word you wrote. When I built my OB speakers, I was in a dilemma whether to build a BiB or an OB. OB won and, although I had some difficulties setting up the crossovers, active-passive, experimented with baffles, wings-no wings,T-bass... I can say that now I have a satisfying setup, but, unfortunately I can not change the dimensions of our room, and have to adapt to some domestic considerations. This means that right now OB's are (too) close to the back wall, and taking them in-and out turns to be a lot of fuss.
That is one part of the story. Another one is-an itch. I always wondered how Bibs would sound, and now, as I write this, I see that at the moment (before my wife comes with an idea to put some other furniture) I have two corners available, which would perfectly fit a BiB. But...I have a pair Fostex Fe206 e sitting in a closet (after I dismantled them from ML TL's which used to be my main speakers before the OBs). I didn't like the sound of Fostex that much; 206 was quite sharp sounding, with not-so -good bass (although a applied a lot of BSC-and it made it duller). Now I am wondering-maybe in a BIb Fostex 206 will sound different. But-what if not?
Lately I came to appreciate the sound of smaller drivers, 4-5" in size. I guess that a BiB with Markaudio Alpair 10 would be rather interesting...(but that remains a future dream)
Guys, sorry for OT..
T101, don't give up! If you have the space, the rest is solvable...
Enjoy
Vix
Thanks for nice words and your support. I fully agree with every word you wrote. When I built my OB speakers, I was in a dilemma whether to build a BiB or an OB. OB won and, although I had some difficulties setting up the crossovers, active-passive, experimented with baffles, wings-no wings,T-bass... I can say that now I have a satisfying setup, but, unfortunately I can not change the dimensions of our room, and have to adapt to some domestic considerations. This means that right now OB's are (too) close to the back wall, and taking them in-and out turns to be a lot of fuss.
That is one part of the story. Another one is-an itch. I always wondered how Bibs would sound, and now, as I write this, I see that at the moment (before my wife comes with an idea to put some other furniture) I have two corners available, which would perfectly fit a BiB. But...I have a pair Fostex Fe206 e sitting in a closet (after I dismantled them from ML TL's which used to be my main speakers before the OBs). I didn't like the sound of Fostex that much; 206 was quite sharp sounding, with not-so -good bass (although a applied a lot of BSC-and it made it duller). Now I am wondering-maybe in a BIb Fostex 206 will sound different. But-what if not?
Lately I came to appreciate the sound of smaller drivers, 4-5" in size. I guess that a BiB with Markaudio Alpair 10 would be rather interesting...(but that remains a future dream)
Guys, sorry for OT..
T101, don't give up! If you have the space, the rest is solvable...
Enjoy
Vix
As promised, here comes the detail report.
First of all, I have to say thanks to Martin for sharing the design. The sound is growing better and better after almost 400 hrs play and it’s opening up with lot of details and kicks. The sound is very warm and lush and these are the parts I like the most. I also enjoy the lower spectrum when playing with double bass, kick drum and cello. The H frame obviously win my other speakers for a noticeable margin. The H frame has the ability to draw my attention to music. It also has the ability to let me hear the authentic impact of a full scale big orchestra. Ah….1812 I’ve been too many time stick to the back wall when the cannon came in………………..!!!
I repeat demo the H frame to some good critical ears with various music, from pop to classical. I’d say almost 100% of them would just say one word ‘Wow’ after the demo and nothing else, but ask me if I could build them the speakers. The sound overall is barely balanced with admirable sweet, warm mids and very delicate, smooth highs. The lower spectrum is one of the particularly outstanding area with lots of powerful kicks. Tested with the Audiophile CD, we could feel the air movement when playing down to 20hz.
These speakers work extremely well on live recordings. You could almost touch the stage as if you’re very close to the performers and you can feel the airy sound around you. I don’t have to spend much time as usual to find the sweet spot for the speakers, just simple positioning will do the trick. What surprises us more than expected is its ability to make the listening room completely disappears. They play the recorded ambience as recorded, not in a falsely-echo kind of way, and simply allow you to identify what's on the recording, especially all that minor nuisances. The big-sounding instruments like piano, kick drums, double bass and cello sound real. Patricia Barber ‘ Black Magic Woman’ comes alive. We almost could touch and see what was going on the performing stage. The sense of impact and coherence was there. I enjoy every minute with it. I certainly would recommend this speaker to whoever with limited building skill like me. I’ll build another pair with Aengus’s design, but will put a tweeter to sparkle the top a bit.
The only problem I have by now is the Alpair 12 still playing a bit louder than the 1858, just a bit. I thought it’s around 3-6 db. Sorry I just guess and I don’t have the equipment to do the job for me. Now I have 13mH 150uf on the 1858, ( original ) and 47uf and 9mH on the Alpair 12. What else I should try to compress the Alpair a bit so to make it sound more balance.
Regards
Albert
First of all, I have to say thanks to Martin for sharing the design. The sound is growing better and better after almost 400 hrs play and it’s opening up with lot of details and kicks. The sound is very warm and lush and these are the parts I like the most. I also enjoy the lower spectrum when playing with double bass, kick drum and cello. The H frame obviously win my other speakers for a noticeable margin. The H frame has the ability to draw my attention to music. It also has the ability to let me hear the authentic impact of a full scale big orchestra. Ah….1812 I’ve been too many time stick to the back wall when the cannon came in………………..!!!
I repeat demo the H frame to some good critical ears with various music, from pop to classical. I’d say almost 100% of them would just say one word ‘Wow’ after the demo and nothing else, but ask me if I could build them the speakers. The sound overall is barely balanced with admirable sweet, warm mids and very delicate, smooth highs. The lower spectrum is one of the particularly outstanding area with lots of powerful kicks. Tested with the Audiophile CD, we could feel the air movement when playing down to 20hz.
These speakers work extremely well on live recordings. You could almost touch the stage as if you’re very close to the performers and you can feel the airy sound around you. I don’t have to spend much time as usual to find the sweet spot for the speakers, just simple positioning will do the trick. What surprises us more than expected is its ability to make the listening room completely disappears. They play the recorded ambience as recorded, not in a falsely-echo kind of way, and simply allow you to identify what's on the recording, especially all that minor nuisances. The big-sounding instruments like piano, kick drums, double bass and cello sound real. Patricia Barber ‘ Black Magic Woman’ comes alive. We almost could touch and see what was going on the performing stage. The sense of impact and coherence was there. I enjoy every minute with it. I certainly would recommend this speaker to whoever with limited building skill like me. I’ll build another pair with Aengus’s design, but will put a tweeter to sparkle the top a bit.
The only problem I have by now is the Alpair 12 still playing a bit louder than the 1858, just a bit. I thought it’s around 3-6 db. Sorry I just guess and I don’t have the equipment to do the job for me. Now I have 13mH 150uf on the 1858, ( original ) and 47uf and 9mH on the Alpair 12. What else I should try to compress the Alpair a bit so to make it sound more balance.
Regards
Albert
I would say ditto to your listening comments. I gave up on matching the Alpair 12 to the 1858 for the same reasons you give and was not ready to add resistors to lower the Alpair sensitivity. I have found the best combination for me to be the Eminence Alpha with the Alpair 7. Also have to agree that both the Alpairs and the H-frame need more time playing to settle in than any other speakers I have built.
>>> I see that at the moment (before my wife comes with an idea to put some other furniture) I have two corners available...
LOL!
I am going to paint my H-frames red in the coming days... weeks...
http://www.zillaaudio.com/Speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm
The powered sub in the photo is no longer in the room.
Godzilla
LOL!
I am going to paint my H-frames red in the coming days... weeks...
http://www.zillaaudio.com/Speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm
The powered sub in the photo is no longer in the room.
Godzilla
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.