If it is only the matter of air-loading, why not just make a standard MJK H-frame fro low QTS driver and add mass to the membrane. I don't mean air load, but rather smth sticked to the mebrane to make it heavier. It should result in lower FS and lower SPL. Anyone tried that ?
Who are they?
Why does the manufacturer need to be European? If Europeans don't want my money I will send it to the americans. I don't care for the shipping cost as long as it is under 200$ per pair, and I non't care about the customs duty and VAT - that's just the price of the goods - shipping, duty and VAT - You always pay that. European goods do not get taxed at the customs, but are more expensive...
I found that AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
Here is their store: AE Speakers Online Store
And here is the speaker that I will probably buy (four of them) after completion of the Goldwood project: AE Speakers Online Store
p.s. You know, now I read a book and it says that for reproducing of 30hz with 90db a 12 inch woofer needs to displace 250 cm3 (15.5 cu. in.) each cycle. In order the same 12 inch woofer to reproduce 30hz with 114 db spl it needs to displace ten times that: 2500 cm3 (155cu. in.) each cycle...
The problem is that at 30 hz your hearing senses 90 db as 70 db and 114db as 90 db.
Obviously NASA will have to undertake speaker manufacturing in order to supply us with 12 inch driver truly capable of 30hz at reasonable levels... because 2500 cm3 is XMAX=25mm (50mm membrane travel) with 500cm3 membrane surface area.
So one needs either 2 or 4x15 inch drivers per side or 2x18 inch drivers per side in order to ensure himself proud entry into the first octave...
Cheers!
EDIT:
Because air has inertia and condensing/rarefying capacities. So it acts as a load and as a damper (shock absorber) all together.
If you just add weight the motor will lessen it's control over the membrane - resulting in greater THD or just distortion - movement will not mirror the shape of the signal.
When you load the membrane with air you benefit from the other capacities of the air besides weight.
EDIT.2.: Applying of impregnant on the membrane adds weight, some specialists add weight to some extent, but you never can make 0.2 qts driver act as a 1.0 qts one! Only slight adjustments are possible!
Why does the manufacturer need to be European? If Europeans don't want my money I will send it to the americans. I don't care for the shipping cost as long as it is under 200$ per pair, and I non't care about the customs duty and VAT - that's just the price of the goods - shipping, duty and VAT - You always pay that. European goods do not get taxed at the customs, but are more expensive...
I found that AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
Here is their store: AE Speakers Online Store
And here is the speaker that I will probably buy (four of them) after completion of the Goldwood project: AE Speakers Online Store
p.s. You know, now I read a book and it says that for reproducing of 30hz with 90db a 12 inch woofer needs to displace 250 cm3 (15.5 cu. in.) each cycle. In order the same 12 inch woofer to reproduce 30hz with 114 db spl it needs to displace ten times that: 2500 cm3 (155cu. in.) each cycle...
The problem is that at 30 hz your hearing senses 90 db as 70 db and 114db as 90 db.
Obviously NASA will have to undertake speaker manufacturing in order to supply us with 12 inch driver truly capable of 30hz at reasonable levels... because 2500 cm3 is XMAX=25mm (50mm membrane travel) with 500cm3 membrane surface area.
So one needs either 2 or 4x15 inch drivers per side or 2x18 inch drivers per side in order to ensure himself proud entry into the first octave...
Cheers!
EDIT:
Because air has inertia and condensing/rarefying capacities. So it acts as a load and as a damper (shock absorber) all together.
If you just add weight the motor will lessen it's control over the membrane - resulting in greater THD or just distortion - movement will not mirror the shape of the signal.
When you load the membrane with air you benefit from the other capacities of the air besides weight.
EDIT.2.: Applying of impregnant on the membrane adds weight, some specialists add weight to some extent, but you never can make 0.2 qts driver act as a 1.0 qts one! Only slight adjustments are possible!
guglielmope - the answer to your question is in line 11 of my previous post (counting empty lines as well)
Henry,
I had a very good thought and decided that probably my next speakers will be IB-15... - just to try more types of enclosures.
And I consider something else as well - for the Goldwood we have ready and tested plans made by specialist - no chance of error. If I try Dipole - 15 I will have to experiment allot. But with IB-15 one must build a good rigid big sealed box - which lessens the chances of errors very much.
Another complication with AE speakers is their impedance curve - very flat and thus low (due to the shorting copper ring) - this makes things little more difficult with crossovers... with other low freq drivers it is easy to make the signal to travel through the midrange - it just sees less resistance there
For me with IB - easier, and With Dipole-15: bi-amping or much harder...
Because you can let a sealed box acoustic design go 500-600 or even more hz, but in the case with OB design you cannot...
Note that these concerns are only based on my capabilities as a crossover and speaker builder (e.g. - modest) and are not some scientific general issue...
Some real specialist and not a hobby figure will implement such precise speakers much easier than a hobby man...
Henry,
I had a very good thought and decided that probably my next speakers will be IB-15... - just to try more types of enclosures.
And I consider something else as well - for the Goldwood we have ready and tested plans made by specialist - no chance of error. If I try Dipole - 15 I will have to experiment allot. But with IB-15 one must build a good rigid big sealed box - which lessens the chances of errors very much.
Another complication with AE speakers is their impedance curve - very flat and thus low (due to the shorting copper ring) - this makes things little more difficult with crossovers... with other low freq drivers it is easy to make the signal to travel through the midrange - it just sees less resistance there
For me with IB - easier, and With Dipole-15: bi-amping or much harder...
Because you can let a sealed box acoustic design go 500-600 or even more hz, but in the case with OB design you cannot...
Note that these concerns are only based on my capabilities as a crossover and speaker builder (e.g. - modest) and are not some scientific general issue...
Some real specialist and not a hobby figure
will implement such precise speakers much easier than a hobby man...Guys, here they are! I went for 7X22 mf Russian MKP - metalized polipropilene for the 150 mf capacitor in the crossover...
I got my self some smaller capacitors to bypass all bigger capacitor in all crossovers!
Wish luck to me - from tomorrow the build begins!
Best regards to all!
I got my self some smaller capacitors to bypass all bigger capacitor in all crossovers!
Wish luck to me - from tomorrow the build begins!
Best regards to all!
Attachments
>>> Is there any new input on using tube amps with Alpha's (or better 2 Alphas paralell). I remeber MJK's post about lack of bass. Anyone compared SS with Tubes ?
I found Alpha's come alive with more power. 100 watts seems to be enough... 45 watts was not enough... i am using solid state to drive them.
Godzilla
I found Alpha's come alive with more power. 100 watts seems to be enough... 45 watts was not enough... i am using solid state to drive them.
Godzilla
I'm asking because my setup is little bit similar to Alpha's. I have 2x12" per side from Audax with QTS around 0.8. They sound really graet, but when I switched from Rotel Ra-980BX to Hlly T-amp, bass was way worse controlled.
I like Rotel on bass but midrage and highs are little harsh, so I was thinking about switching to tubes.
The thing is that impedance of 2 woofers with big coil is propably down to 2ohms at 100hz (I'm guessing). Not easy for amp.
Maybe there are ways to lift the impedance up a little... (Zobel maybe ?)
I like Rotel on bass but midrage and highs are little harsh, so I was thinking about switching to tubes.
The thing is that impedance of 2 woofers with big coil is propably down to 2ohms at 100hz (I'm guessing). Not easy for amp.
Maybe there are ways to lift the impedance up a little... (Zobel maybe ?)
>>> but when I switched from Rotel Ra-980BX to Hlly T-amp, bass was way worse controlled.
I never tried it but do not think the T-amp will properly drive the Alpha's unless it's a very powerful amp... certainly not the Sonic Impact amp and it's kissing cousins... maybe i am wrong? But i love this amp for smaller drivers like the fostex 168, 165, 127 and 103 which i have had GREAT results.
>>> I like Rotel on bass but midrage and highs are little harsh, so I was thinking about switching to tubes.
I think that's a GREAT idea. I have tubes on my main driver(s) - the latest and greatest 8" Tangband plus a super tweeter - and solid state for the Alpha's. I've owned my tube amp longer than any other piece of equipment and don't even think about changing it. Consider a nice tube amp an investment in your audio hobby and listening pleasure regardless of what the specs say.
You could also try switching the T-amp for your mains and the Rotel for the bass if you haven't already.
Godzilla
I never tried it but do not think the T-amp will properly drive the Alpha's unless it's a very powerful amp... certainly not the Sonic Impact amp and it's kissing cousins... maybe i am wrong? But i love this amp for smaller drivers like the fostex 168, 165, 127 and 103 which i have had GREAT results.
>>> I like Rotel on bass but midrage and highs are little harsh, so I was thinking about switching to tubes.
I think that's a GREAT idea. I have tubes on my main driver(s) - the latest and greatest 8" Tangband plus a super tweeter - and solid state for the Alpha's. I've owned my tube amp longer than any other piece of equipment and don't even think about changing it. Consider a nice tube amp an investment in your audio hobby and listening pleasure regardless of what the specs say.
You could also try switching the T-amp for your mains and the Rotel for the bass if you haven't already.
Godzilla
Here They Are!!!
Hi Guys!
Mine are ready for a whole week now!
I used them to power my birthday party the bass was unbelievable!!! It was as if we were in a disco club!!! And this was achieved while driven with only a 75 watt RX-497 Yamaha!
With my BIG Yamaha MX-1000 (which unfortunately stays at our summer house) the speakers happily received 150-180 watts and were asking for more!
With the smaller amp they were beginning to be unhappy somewhere around the middle of the travel of the volume control - this was expected thou...
Now about the sound!
Well, I think that concerning the bass they act like a monitor speaker... they only play bass when it is present in the recording... - I point and underline that in order to make distinction from horns and bass reflex and especially the bass reflex, which in some cases adds low sounds that do not exist in the record or plays them allot louder than original!
And when there is bass it is tremendous! Accurate as it can be! I invited some musicians to listen to the speakers and they said that this is the most accurate bass reproduction that they have ever heard!!! Double Bass, Drums and etc. - you can tell what is the texture of the strings of the bass guitar or the Double Bass... you can tell whether the drum is with leather or plastic membrane and how stretched is it!!!
The top part... well I have a bit of a struggle with attenuation and another bit of headache with the crossovers... but at least I gave the crossovers exellent design
The OB part of the speaker makes very good 3D effect... as a matter of fact the best I have ever heard! And that is not all! Due to the almost 360o dispersion the sweet point is very wide - I mean it is so wide that even if you are standing in front of the one speaker, you still have stereo. As a matter of fact you can have the stereo effect in many different places - for instance outside the base of the speakers and at distance greater than the distance between the speakers...
I didn't write before now, because I still can't find words to thank Mr. Martin J. King! Because I am one ordinary DIY man, not much time, not much knowledge in the audio or acoustics... He made his articles and research in such way, that there was no moment that I didn't knew what to do! And the edge software is just marvelous! Thank You Martin!!!
Another reason why Mr. King is so special is that many times we (particularly I) have witnessed how someone gives delusive advices on the WWW. I personally have spent over 1000 euro - this is 1500-1600 USD on something completely unusable! I did that following strictly the advices in Bulgarian DIY forum! And more over handling the crossover part to a specialist known in that forum and paying him for that...
And now a guy from the opposite part of the world puts some very hard work on giving me and any other enthusiast for free something really marvelous and incomparable with any other product.
How to thank such person!?!
And I spent little over 700USD for all of it! For that money one can't even put his hands on a pair of Tannoy Sensys DC-2!
And I think nf one can get even near proximity of the sound of the MJK's H-frame + OB's for under 5.000 USD!
Thank You Martin!
p.s.1. The dimensions of the OB are 700X510 mm (27.5X20 in), the material for all the construction is 21mm thick (more than 3/4 in) and is Poplar plywood. I mistakenly made the internal dimensions 51X51 cm (20.0787 in) - I found that after the first speaker was finished, but made the second the same... and there are no negative consequences on the performance... not that I know how they act with the 28mm (little over 1 inch) smaller internal dimensions... The wings of the OB are 150X350mm.
The overall height is 1280 mm (50,393 in) and they are really big speakers... Not that they are mine, but they are beautifull))
p.s.2. underneath you will find a picture of my pride - all the top Yamaha's I could put my hands on... all in perfect condition: MX-1000 amp, C-85 preamp, CDX-993 - 20 bit DAC - player, EQ-1100 - eq and last but not least TX-497 tuner - not on the level of the others, but remote controllable and pretty decent sound.
Best Regards to all!!!
p.s.3. I will probably bother you attention soon again as I am going to investigate the crossover issue little bit more...
Hi Guys!
Mine are ready for a whole week now!
I used them to power my birthday party
the bass was unbelievable!!! It was as if we were in a disco club!!! And this was achieved while driven with only a 75 watt RX-497 Yamaha!With my BIG Yamaha MX-1000 (which unfortunately stays at our summer house) the speakers happily received 150-180 watts and were asking for more!
With the smaller amp they were beginning to be unhappy somewhere around the middle of the travel of the volume control - this was expected thou...
Now about the sound!
Well, I think that concerning the bass they act like a monitor speaker... they only play bass when it is present in the recording... - I point and underline that in order to make distinction from horns and bass reflex and especially the bass reflex, which in some cases adds low sounds that do not exist in the record or plays them allot louder than original!
And when there is bass it is tremendous! Accurate as it can be! I invited some musicians to listen to the speakers and they said that this is the most accurate bass reproduction that they have ever heard!!! Double Bass, Drums and etc. - you can tell what is the texture of the strings of the bass guitar or the Double Bass... you can tell whether the drum is with leather or plastic membrane and how stretched is it!!!
The top part... well I have a bit of a struggle with attenuation and another bit of headache with the crossovers... but at least I gave the crossovers exellent design
The OB part of the speaker makes very good 3D effect... as a matter of fact the best I have ever heard! And that is not all! Due to the almost 360o dispersion the sweet point is very wide - I mean it is so wide that even if you are standing in front of the one speaker, you still have stereo. As a matter of fact you can have the stereo effect in many different places - for instance outside the base of the speakers and at distance greater than the distance between the speakers...
I didn't write before now, because I still can't find words to thank Mr. Martin J. King! Because I am one ordinary DIY man, not much time, not much knowledge in the audio or acoustics... He made his articles and research in such way, that there was no moment that I didn't knew what to do! And the edge software is just marvelous! Thank You Martin!!!
Another reason why Mr. King is so special is that many times we (particularly I) have witnessed how someone gives delusive advices on the WWW. I personally have spent over 1000 euro - this is 1500-1600 USD on something completely unusable! I did that following strictly the advices in Bulgarian DIY forum! And more over handling the crossover part to a specialist known in that forum and paying him for that...
And now a guy from the opposite part of the world puts some very hard work on giving me and any other enthusiast for free something really marvelous and incomparable with any other product.
How to thank such person!?!
And I spent little over 700USD for all of it! For that money one can't even put his hands on a pair of Tannoy Sensys DC-2!
And I think nf one can get even near proximity of the sound of the MJK's H-frame + OB's for under 5.000 USD!
Thank You Martin!
p.s.1. The dimensions of the OB are 700X510 mm (27.5X20 in), the material for all the construction is 21mm thick (more than 3/4 in) and is Poplar plywood. I mistakenly made the internal dimensions 51X51 cm
(20.0787 in) - I found that after the first speaker was finished, but made the second the same... and there are no negative consequences on the performance... not that I know how they act with the 28mm (little over 1 inch) smaller internal dimensions... The wings of the OB are 150X350mm.The overall height is 1280 mm (50,393 in) and they are really big speakers... Not that they are mine, but they are beautifull
))p.s.2. underneath you will find a picture of my pride
- all the top Yamaha's I could put my hands on... all in perfect condition: MX-1000 amp, C-85 preamp, CDX-993 - 20 bit DAC - player, EQ-1100 - eq and last but not least TX-497 tuner - not on the level of the others, but remote controllable and pretty decent sound.Best Regards to all!!!
p.s.3. I will probably bother you attention soon again as I am going to investigate the crossover issue little bit more...
Attachments
Last edited:
T101, Chestito!
Hope you enjoy them
Maybe I missed it, but what drivers are you using?
Regards
Vix
Thank You! Blagodaria!
Underneath it is Goldwood GW-1858 - no surprize
For midrange I use a Bulgarian made full range with Russian cast chassis unknown membrane, custom 2 layer voice coil on paper former... - very good tone and detail, but originally constructed for TL acoustic enclosure and with too much treatment of the membrane with impregnating covering... everything is great except that the solo drum is too quiet... voices and guitars on the same frequencies are with normal level and very clear, but the solo drum (the one on the most left besides the pedal fuse) is hardly audible.
For high frequencies I use ribbon drivers called NdRL81-II - they are made by the Bulgarian professor Ivan Vulchev - he rules!
and they are exellent!As this was a budget low cost project for me and my trainee at our Law office we used only low cost components such as the ribbon drivers for 35 Euro each and 30 Euro second hand for the full range drivers + 5 Euro for the phase plugs
. The crossover components cost 50 Euro for all except the Erse inductances, Including 18 pieces of 22 mf Russian capacitors with metalized polypropylene film made in the far 1989 year in the former USSR All the wood used costs 75 Euro with the cutting and we have 3/4 of the second sheet left to spare, the glue and the screws cost 8 Euro and 2XGW1858 with shipping together with the Erse Inductances and customs taxes costs 440 USD (286 Euro)
Total cost is 560 Euro - 770 USD
And we proved that if the DIY man is properly advised he is able himself to achieve really great results at a totally low cost!
You know, I consider that forum and the work of Mr. King to be two occurrences or if you wish phenomenons! I have read about the work of a State Senator who examined many businesses and services available for the society in the states. He concluded that everyone is cheating and deceiving the clients or patients, from car shops to hospitals. His work inspired me to check if something good might come out from DIY internet forums and some other spheres of social life...
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Hi,
Thanks for info. For some reason I had expected that you will use Ether driver that is popular among Bulgarian DIY-ers, though it is not quite cheap. But if you're happy with the current speakers, just enjoy. I have an OB too, and it is quite hard to go back to boxes once you get "OB" infection....
p.s. Haven't been to Bulgaria/Sofia for a while, but if I go this year, I'd like to drop by for a listen...
Enjoy
Vix
Thanks for info. For some reason I had expected that you will use Ether driver that is popular among Bulgarian DIY-ers, though it is not quite cheap. But if you're happy with the current speakers, just enjoy. I have an OB too, and it is quite hard to go back to boxes once you get "OB" infection....
p.s. Haven't been to Bulgaria/Sofia for a while, but if I go this year, I'd like to drop by for a listen...
Enjoy
Vix
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