Gavinator68 said:
I have a CD that contains 32Hz organ tones. That to me sounds VERY low, and I have never heard any other CD going so low. I don't listen to a lot of electronically generated music so I may miss a whole universe, but to me the target of output to 20Hz is quite adequate.
Jan Didden
Lowest I have is Pink Floyd's DSOTM: 25Hz, and a compilation of Bach organ recitals which is sub 20Hz.
LP rarely goes this low, and it can't (usually) do it in stereo otherwise the needle has a nasty habit of jumping out of the groove. Hense Massive Attack's last album was released on CD only, despite the rave reviews for their previous, vinyl offering. Bit of a moot point as nominally everything is omni-directional below circa 70Hz, but there you have it. Worse, below around 35-40Hz, most information (on vinyl) is often swamped by noise, warps etc. Subs (at the bottom end of their spectrum) and vinyl are not always a happy combination -it might sound quite impressive, and subjectively a lot of bass, but not a lot of it is actually what was recorded in the first place! In this respect at least, CD and other digital mediums have the advantage, assuming, of course, that you wish or need to go this low in the first place. Accoustic music, organ excepted, is limited to circa 40Hz, as is most rock actually, unless Rick Wakeman is in one of his more creative keyboard moments so a lower end of 30Hz is usually more than suficient.
Best
Scott
LP rarely goes this low, and it can't (usually) do it in stereo otherwise the needle has a nasty habit of jumping out of the groove. Hense Massive Attack's last album was released on CD only, despite the rave reviews for their previous, vinyl offering. Bit of a moot point as nominally everything is omni-directional below circa 70Hz, but there you have it. Worse, below around 35-40Hz, most information (on vinyl) is often swamped by noise, warps etc. Subs (at the bottom end of their spectrum) and vinyl are not always a happy combination -it might sound quite impressive, and subjectively a lot of bass, but not a lot of it is actually what was recorded in the first place! In this respect at least, CD and other digital mediums have the advantage, assuming, of course, that you wish or need to go this low in the first place. Accoustic music, organ excepted, is limited to circa 40Hz, as is most rock actually, unless Rick Wakeman is in one of his more creative keyboard moments so a lower end of 30Hz is usually more than suficient.
Best
Scott
Re: Re: Human Hearing.................
If my loudspeakers have
-6dB at 40 Hz and -6dB at 15.000 Hz
I dont think I will miss much.
you may argue I will have a bad sound system
because you think it should be
-3dB at 20 Hz and -3dB at 20.000 Hz
I dont think so, at all
I will not miss much .... whatever you say
janneman said:
If my loudspeakers have
-6dB at 40 Hz and -6dB at 15.000 Hz
I dont think I will miss much.
you may argue I will have a bad sound system
because you think it should be
-3dB at 20 Hz and -3dB at 20.000 Hz
I dont think so, at all
I will not miss much .... whatever you say
Not many acoustic instruments go below 40 Hz.
Here is a list of frequency ranges:
http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm
Obviously there are exceptions, at least in the case of organs, that can go lower than 20 Hz.
Here is a list of frequency ranges:
http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm
Obviously there are exceptions, at least in the case of organs, that can go lower than 20 Hz.
The following may be useful :
In an AES paper, "Subwoofer performance for accurate reproduction of music", Fielder and Benjamin mention some Cd records having a lot of extreme bass information, with audible components below 32 Hz. Here, a short extract :
Tchaïskowsky "1812 ouverture" Telarc
Dupré "Symphony in G Minor" Telarc
Hindemith "Organ sonata #1" Argo
Strauss "Also sprach Zarathoustra" Telarc
Bach "Kyrye, Goot heiliger Geist" Telarc
Saint Saëns "Symphony #3" Telarc
Williams "Star wars theme" Telarc
Bach "Toccata and fugue in D minor" Telarc
Bill Cobham "Warning" GRP
For some listening tests, Fielder and Benjamin use the Hindemith sonata. Probably due to an insufficient study of this paper, I have not been able to get a precise conclusion on what is the exact level of the recorded material at the sub-frequencies compared to their average level.
I am very interested by this thread because I am looking for data of the level distribution with frequencies in records, either on very special cases as above or averages made on many records. These data can be of great help to determine the requirements in the design of subs as well as whole loudspeakers in accordance with the wanted maximal levels.
~~~~~~ Forr
§§§
In an AES paper, "Subwoofer performance for accurate reproduction of music", Fielder and Benjamin mention some Cd records having a lot of extreme bass information, with audible components below 32 Hz. Here, a short extract :
Tchaïskowsky "1812 ouverture" Telarc
Dupré "Symphony in G Minor" Telarc
Hindemith "Organ sonata #1" Argo
Strauss "Also sprach Zarathoustra" Telarc
Bach "Kyrye, Goot heiliger Geist" Telarc
Saint Saëns "Symphony #3" Telarc
Williams "Star wars theme" Telarc
Bach "Toccata and fugue in D minor" Telarc
Bill Cobham "Warning" GRP
For some listening tests, Fielder and Benjamin use the Hindemith sonata. Probably due to an insufficient study of this paper, I have not been able to get a precise conclusion on what is the exact level of the recorded material at the sub-frequencies compared to their average level.
I am very interested by this thread because I am looking for data of the level distribution with frequencies in records, either on very special cases as above or averages made on many records. These data can be of great help to determine the requirements in the design of subs as well as whole loudspeakers in accordance with the wanted maximal levels.
~~~~~~ Forr
§§§
There was once a JAES article that showed power distribution as a function of frequency and time for some selected recordings. When I come accross it I will post year and issue.
AFAIR the bigger parts of recordings have dropping levels below 60 Hz.
The Telarc "1812" recording mentioned above goes down to 2 Hz (cannons !!!) and the spectral distribution is almost flat between 20 Hz and many kHz. But this is an extreme example.
IMO usable results can be had with an LF extension down to 60 Hz already. But the lower you can go the more pleasurable is the end result.
And there was once "the rule of 400000" saying that the lower cutoff frequency multiplied by the upper cutoff frequency should equal 400000 in order to get a balanced response. This means that if you can only go down to 60 Hz your upper extension shouldn't go over 6.7 kHz approx if you don't want to have a "treble heavy" sound character.
Regards
Charles
AFAIR the bigger parts of recordings have dropping levels below 60 Hz.
The Telarc "1812" recording mentioned above goes down to 2 Hz (cannons !!!) and the spectral distribution is almost flat between 20 Hz and many kHz. But this is an extreme example.
IMO usable results can be had with an LF extension down to 60 Hz already. But the lower you can go the more pleasurable is the end result.
And there was once "the rule of 400000" saying that the lower cutoff frequency multiplied by the upper cutoff frequency should equal 400000 in order to get a balanced response. This means that if you can only go down to 60 Hz your upper extension shouldn't go over 6.7 kHz approx if you don't want to have a "treble heavy" sound character.
Regards
Charles
So a subwoofer would be a contraproductive investment for us who no longer hear above some 12-14 kHz then?
Are there any scientific studies behind these rules of thumb?
I am not sure how this loss of hearing treble that comes with age works, if it rolls off like a filter or is a more sharp upper limit. However, if we should follow the advice and get rid of the deep bass, then is the question should we get rid of it entirely, or should we just attenaute it so we still get the information but not so loud? Take for instance a 28 Hz piano tone. It would sound imbalanced for me, according to the rule, but surely it would be disturbing musically to miss it entirely, so perhaps it should be there, but not quite as loud as it is ought to be?
Are there any scientific studies behind these rules of thumb?
I am not sure how this loss of hearing treble that comes with age works, if it rolls off like a filter or is a more sharp upper limit. However, if we should follow the advice and get rid of the deep bass, then is the question should we get rid of it entirely, or should we just attenaute it so we still get the information but not so loud? Take for instance a 28 Hz piano tone. It would sound imbalanced for me, according to the rule, but surely it would be disturbing musically to miss it entirely, so perhaps it should be there, but not quite as loud as it is ought to be?
If you like techno type music there are a bunch of artists out there that specialize in the "bass" genre. Bass Mekanik is one. He has plenty of ~20Hz and lower content on most of his songs.
The cannon part of the 1812 overture sounds awesome with very capable subs! Toccata and fugue in D minor also sounds incredible with nice speakers and subs. The organ just seems to fill the entire room... kinda makes you feel like you're in the large chamber with it
The cannon part of the 1812 overture sounds awesome with very capable subs! Toccata and fugue in D minor also sounds incredible with nice speakers and subs. The organ just seems to fill the entire room... kinda makes you feel like you're in the large chamber with it
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.