This is a thread about 'How to listen'
Here are the 'rules'
Listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NgkP8aABO4
And then check this out
Harman How to Listen
And then lets talk about it.
(I am in between homes right now, I don't have a sound system set up 🙁 but I will be watching the discussion intently)
p.s.
I would also highly suggest listening to this at your own pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
Here are the 'rules'
Listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NgkP8aABO4
And then check this out
Harman How to Listen
And then lets talk about it.
(I am in between homes right now, I don't have a sound system set up 🙁 but I will be watching the discussion intently)
p.s.
I would also highly suggest listening to this at your own pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
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I started watching Toole's presentation. As usual it is excellent, but nothing new to someone who has followed his work since he first began (I knew Floyd way back when he was at the Canadian NRC.) He makes the point that I have been trying to make around here for a long time and that is the difference between the "art" and its production and its reproduction. Until people come to terms with this difference there can't be much movement forward.
There is no emotion connected with reproduction, any emotion in that context can only be applied to the "art". It is so surprising to me how often people describe sound systems in emotional terms - its so wrong.
But enough for now - this thread will go the way of all the other threads of subjective versus objective with the "subjectivists" simply stating that they don't care about objectives, they know what they like and if it sounds good to them then it is good! (Pano, are you out there!!)
There is no emotion connected with reproduction, any emotion in that context can only be applied to the "art". It is so surprising to me how often people describe sound systems in emotional terms - its so wrong.
But enough for now - this thread will go the way of all the other threads of subjective versus objective with the "subjectivists" simply stating that they don't care about objectives, they know what they like and if it sounds good to them then it is good! (Pano, are you out there!!)
Yes, I am here. And of course enjoy you misrepresenting me, as usual. 😉
Some people want a sound system to be a scientific tool - and that brings them a certain satisfaction.
Others want to listen to music and enjoy it. That also brings satisfaction.
Different goals.
Some people want a sound system to be a scientific tool - and that brings them a certain satisfaction.
Others want to listen to music and enjoy it. That also brings satisfaction.
Different goals.
Satisfaction is the goal, no matter the means. It is best not to judge the better camp, but to to realize we can all gain, no matter the choice.
+2 to Cal.
Some of us use our systems to escape from normal life.
Satisfaction comes from playing. This playing is sometimes the music, sometimes it's the other stuff. New interconnects, new positioning of speakers, maybe different locations for our sound absorbing panels.
Anybody out there dismantle their entire system, clean the shelves, floor etc. and put everything back, and when they're done, think it 'sounds' better?. Or am I the only one?.
I also think my truck runs better after a good washing?.
Both equally as satisfying.
Some of us use our systems to escape from normal life.
Satisfaction comes from playing. This playing is sometimes the music, sometimes it's the other stuff. New interconnects, new positioning of speakers, maybe different locations for our sound absorbing panels.
Anybody out there dismantle their entire system, clean the shelves, floor etc. and put everything back, and when they're done, think it 'sounds' better?. Or am I the only one?.
I also think my truck runs better after a good washing?.
Both equally as satisfying.
I just figured to combine the two as I'm pretty certain if you apply the science the listening will get more enjoyable. So far that is working pretty good. But I tend to listen to all camps here to try and learn. And do my own experiments to determine how I feel/think about those views.
So far better measurements have led to more enjoyment of the art for me.
More and more I really do believe the magic is in the music and the combination of our equipment and room has the job to make it shine. If you do that right you can basically play any genre on it and the magic will come trough i.m.h.o.
Does anyone apart from me differentiate between accuracy and realism. The latter is of course subjective.
I'm with you Cal 100%
I listen to music for an emotional reaction / satisfaction. If the system doesn't do that it's what I call a failure. There is no doubt it takes science and "art" to get there and and it is fun for some of us to work to their fix. After building my own playback systems for 30 years at first being a "high end" golden ear I have evolved into one that thrives for a system that full fills the deepest emotional connection to the recording I can get - it took horns for me to get there (goosebumps, hair raising bliss) and I've yet to find anything else out there that works for me to this extent (20+ year horny lol.) Sure "critical" listening (and measuring) has to be done to fine tune the beast (fully horn loaded) to extract the best emotional playback possible. 😛
I listen to music for an emotional reaction / satisfaction. If the system doesn't do that it's what I call a failure. There is no doubt it takes science and "art" to get there and and it is fun for some of us to work to their fix. After building my own playback systems for 30 years at first being a "high end" golden ear I have evolved into one that thrives for a system that full fills the deepest emotional connection to the recording I can get - it took horns for me to get there (goosebumps, hair raising bliss) and I've yet to find anything else out there that works for me to this extent (20+ year horny lol.) Sure "critical" listening (and measuring) has to be done to fine tune the beast (fully horn loaded) to extract the best emotional playback possible. 😛
You're in good company, historically speaking. I find subjectivist arguments ultimately vacuous. It's like most music or movie critics: they mostly contradict my own observations, their opinions are quickly forgotten, and are generally a waste of time.
Chris
Watched first video. It explains how the harman pimps feel they will sell more boxes by creating critical (no end buy more boxes) listeners. Typical western capitalism and "consumption" crap. Objective education to increase sales is the purpose. lol - Funny to post this to a DIYers forum since IMO they are the people that are the antithesis of this follow the leader mentality. The product "tests" he claims have the SAME results (his claim) whether the listener is critical trained (listen for flaws lol) or are just typical people (listen for pleasure.) The difference is the untrained listener may actually enjoy the test where the critical listener is somewhat of a borg. 🙂
And maybe this is the real divide around this forum. Is those who want to talk science, and those who don't. What's objective and what's subjective? To each there own. It seems like it could avoid some headaches if it's clear who's speaking what language.
There is a place for pleasures of imagination, art, emotion etc I appreciate all that. I totally get what Cousin Billy is saying about thinking that your truck runs better after you wash it, happens to me almost every time. So long as one knows and respects what is science and what isn't.... Is it reduced drag? 😛
And just to be long winded. The tough thing is I think it's often the world of imagination and make believe idea's that bring about real science. (The earth is round?! it revolves around the sun?! there are tiny living organisms all over your body that you can't see?!) It's a tough job sorting one from the other. And it's important for the science minded to keep an open mind that there is more out there that isn't explained or even conceptualized yet.
Patience and politeness,
Shawn
There is a place for pleasures of imagination, art, emotion etc I appreciate all that. I totally get what Cousin Billy is saying about thinking that your truck runs better after you wash it, happens to me almost every time. So long as one knows and respects what is science and what isn't.... Is it reduced drag? 😛
And just to be long winded. The tough thing is I think it's often the world of imagination and make believe idea's that bring about real science. (The earth is round?! it revolves around the sun?! there are tiny living organisms all over your body that you can't see?!) It's a tough job sorting one from the other. And it's important for the science minded to keep an open mind that there is more out there that isn't explained or even conceptualized yet.
Patience and politeness,
Shawn
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Just extrapolate this idea to a conductor. If you don't have a well trained, discerning ear, then how are you supposed to tune your orchestra? Likewise on the final end of in home reproduction.
Some of us listen to someone sing or play an instrument and think, oh that sounds nice. Others, like me, will say, she's singing flat, it makes it hard to enjoy. I think it's only natural to bring the same level of criticism to a sound system.
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Toole's and Olive's talking points are typically useful (unlike some others that I read here). Some of the assigned relative importance that they imply I can agree with, others, not so much. For instance, the supreme emphasis on smooth FR using passive crossovers is on the marketing side since this performance aspect is correctable to a large degree by not using passives (...but not directivity aberrations and other forms of audible distortion, notably side-band type distortion, also called modulation distortion). But generally speaking, what they say is useful.
I do agree very much with the ear training piece--"How to Listen". The freeware application is a really nice contribution to the discipline/pastime. I've met many self-professed golden ears that had truly terrible taste in loudspeaker performance, but they were nevertheless proud and extremely boisterous of their tastes. I've found that pointing out issues in the hearing performance of golden ears isn't pleasant, typically. Olive has made that job a lot easier.
Chris
I do agree very much with the ear training piece--"How to Listen". The freeware application is a really nice contribution to the discipline/pastime. I've met many self-professed golden ears that had truly terrible taste in loudspeaker performance, but they were nevertheless proud and extremely boisterous of their tastes. I've found that pointing out issues in the hearing performance of golden ears isn't pleasant, typically. Olive has made that job a lot easier.
Chris
Of course criticism of the system is important but to only who listen and build it. i personally build for me for my room and pleasure. I appreciate the science and contributions here and wherever I can find or use it to obtain more pleasure in the playback. The video and the test is a way of Harmon saving money and making more profit it does not help me one bit in my pleasure of playback.
For a lot of people, yes. But not for everyone.
Different folks have different goals and different paths.
Of course there is the great middle ground where both subjective listening and good engineering are both used to reach a goal. I beleive most of the readership here is like that. You can see that in this very thread.
Building speakers can be deceptive, unless you stuff it up really badly you'll still get sound, & then Beranek's law kicks in. It's when you build you second & subsequent speakers that you've got something to compare, and your listening education begins. The number of iterations before the Dunning-Krueger effect wears off will vary with each individual of course.... Because Psychology plays a large part in all of this, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the subjectivists, at least the objectivists should make an attempt to understand their motivations.
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