it is not only about capacitance, inductance and resistance or the parameters we know
I am afraid but it is not only about capacitance, inductance and resistance or the parameters we know, we can define or can measure. I am sure there is more to it. There is certainly a gap in knowledge where science has not come up with a possible theory or plausible explanation.
... and I have not mentioned anything about metaphysics yet.
I am afraid but it is not only about capacitance, inductance and resistance or the parameters we know, we can define or can measure. I am sure there is more to it. There is certainly a gap in knowledge where science has not come up with a possible theory or plausible explanation.
... and I have not mentioned anything about metaphysics yet.
another sceptic comment
I do not know anything about your system and certainly nothing your cabling but the differences in cabling can be very dramatic to say the least.
I do not know anything about your system and certainly nothing your cabling but the differences in cabling can be very dramatic to say the least.
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Why should that be? If the test is controlled to be ears-only, I can't see that this makes the slightest bit of difference for determining whether or not they can be distinguished, and IF they can, which is preferred in that particular setup by that particular group. Big IF, of course.
When it comes to wire? No, not really. Unhappily, the explanation does not generally involve the wire.
If the demonstrator knows what's on at any given time, it's not a controlled ears-only test. See my Linear Audio article on doing listening tests for further exposition. The point I was making to Dave is that even if everyone knows that it's the Quantum Fury Crystal Energy versus a banana, as long as the test is controlled, the results are valid.
watch out for fruit flies - a possible confounder that could leak the identity
DC cable shield R can be a differentiator in SE interconnect when PS, chassis leakage currents are present
shield effectiveness can be compromised in other ways too: 360 degree termination to the connectors is best to prevent EMI ingress
DC cable shield R can be a differentiator in SE interconnect when PS, chassis leakage currents are present
shield effectiveness can be compromised in other ways too: 360 degree termination to the connectors is best to prevent EMI ingress
You seem very confident that Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism is fundamentally flawed, yet we are communicating using systems which rely on Maxwell being right. We are being defended by systems which rely on Maxwell being right. If you get sick the hospital may look inside you using systems which rely on Maxwell being right. Why is it that one of the least demanding applications of Maxwell's theory (audio interconnections - small signals, small bandwidth, weak linearity requirements) is imagined to be so sensitive to unknown flaws in the theory?sycozomatik said:
I fear that a shoot-out between the QFCE and a banana might result in excessive listener stress, thus rendering them unable to proceed. Better that they believe themselves to be comparing apples with oranges, then the presence of a banana can be revealed afterwards.SY said:
James Clerk Maxwell was truly brilliant but he died in 1879, a bit more has been added since then! Yes some of the newer stuff is applicable to audio electronics. 
SY at least wants to see some controls. I would suggest one person behind a curtain swap the cables. No switch to introduce another variable. If a mute switch is required I would put it in the loudspeaker line.
SY at least wants to see some controls. I would suggest one person behind a curtain swap the cables. No switch to introduce another variable. If a mute switch is required I would put it in the loudspeaker line.
thank you for the advice
James Clerk Maxwell was truly brilliant but he died in 1879, a bit more has been added since then! Yes some of the newer stuff is applicable to audio electronics.
SY at least wants to see some controls. I would suggest one person behind a curtain swap the cables. No switch to introduce another variable. If a mute switch is required I would put it in the loudspeaker line.
Anybody wants to participate in shoot out at all?
Dear Ladies and Gents,
May I remind you that the purpose of starting this thread was to organise a cable shoot out. So far I have only 2 people to agreed to participate in the shoot out.
We can always discuss all possible theories and anomalies after the shoot out- I promise that.
Dear Ladies and Gents,
May I remind you that the purpose of starting this thread was to organise a cable shoot out. So far I have only 2 people to agreed to participate in the shoot out.
We can always discuss all possible theories and anomalies after the shoot out- I promise that.
I think if you make a controlled test, whether there is difference or not, the result will be close to useless...
First, you should prove that the listeners have the ability to hear microscopic differences (in a controlled test) before you can accept their opinions about the sound differences...
Second, the result will be subjective and "non-repeatable" because it will be about system "matching" and preferences...
Among DIYers with good ears, silver is known for "detailed/bright" characteristics with "thin-sounding" characteristics as the trade-off. Then it is all about matching and preferences for a better "balanced" characteristics. If your system is already full of silver wire, I'm not surprised if pure copper DUT will be preferred. And if you change any part of your system, the preference will change... so there is really no point here other than to have fun...
As a controlled test, you can conduct a sighted test, but also record the sound at some points and post the recorded sounds here.
Like you, I'm a believer that the differences in cabling can be very dramatic. But may be not like you, if I can't hear the differences in a controlled test, I will say that the difference does not exist or inaudible or irrelevant.
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Not quite what he said. If the cable preference is system dependent but differences are identified then the issue becomes how do the cables differ.
Then if there are measurable differences in L,C & R that may be adjusted without significant expense. If there are not then you won't believe the results.
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too complex with some spurrious conclusions
1. No need to prove anything here - the difference are not necessarily "microscopic" and if they are, who cares about them?
2. That is entirely the point, subjective and only subjective. The shoot out is not about objectivity
3. Fun? yes of course but I have to disagree with the rest. Your conclusions about the sound character of silver is too general in nature and spurrious in my view. Are you referring to a pure silver, sterling, silver alloy or a silver plated material anyway?
4. Controlled test? Only to a degree. I have no intentions to control for all the factors.
Bottom line is cable shoot out is NOT a scientific experiment.
The main purpose of the shoot out is FUN, for me at least. It may though not be so funny for some other participates if they realise that some cables are a bottleneck.
1. No need to prove anything here - the difference are not necessarily "microscopic" and if they are, who cares about them?
2. That is entirely the point, subjective and only subjective. The shoot out is not about objectivity
3. Fun? yes of course but I have to disagree with the rest. Your conclusions about the sound character of silver is too general in nature and spurrious in my view. Are you referring to a pure silver, sterling, silver alloy or a silver plated material anyway?
4. Controlled test? Only to a degree. I have no intentions to control for all the factors.
Bottom line is cable shoot out is NOT a scientific experiment.
The main purpose of the shoot out is FUN, for me at least. It may though not be so funny for some other participates if they realise that some cables are a bottleneck.
I don't believe my own measurement skill (I tend to blame measurement/tools accuracy). I think there are things that I can hear but I cannot (or don't know what and how to) measure...
I agree with Scott, that why bother... Not because I know how to achieve the proper L/C combination with less money, but because I have heard expensive big cables, and heard the differences, but I didn't like it or the differences are not important... Or may be because with that extra more money I know better where to invest it other than in the cable...
You think that pure silver is more revealing and your friend thinks that pure copper from the 30's is better. So, don't you have the curiosity to know who's right and who is wrong?
There are people who likes to assume things and treat them as absolute reality and don't like to be proven wrong. You can at least use the objective test to prove to yourself that you are not one of them...
In general. Why not record the sounds and analyze in blind which one is sterling, which one is silver alloy and which one is silver plated?
Sycozomatik
To say that copper cables mask low level signals more than silver suggests a non-linear effect like diode action rather than a pure attenuation effect due to the slightly higher (read negligible) resistance of copper compared to silver. This diode effect is usually assigned to the presence of crystal boundaries in the wire, which occur in both metals equally by the way. This subject has been done to death many times and it has been experimentally proven that no such diode effect exists down to femtoamp currents and nanovolt signal levels.
I'm afraid it's all in your imagination.
To say that copper cables mask low level signals more than silver suggests a non-linear effect like diode action rather than a pure attenuation effect due to the slightly higher (read negligible) resistance of copper compared to silver. This diode effect is usually assigned to the presence of crystal boundaries in the wire, which occur in both metals equally by the way. This subject has been done to death many times and it has been experimentally proven that no such diode effect exists down to femtoamp currents and nanovolt signal levels.
I'm afraid it's all in your imagination.
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