Yes, you need math. At least if you want to do something beyond painting magic goop on volume control knobs. Doing audio electronics means being able to manipulate algebraic expressions. You should be able to understand Fourier series and transforms. Complex numbers. Phase. Hilbert transforms. Polar plots. Basic differences between energy, force, and power.
Now, I don't think you have to take things to the point where you can do contour integration in your head, understand differential geometry, or intelligently discuss conformal mappings. But a solid knowledge of algebra and trigonometry and a basic understanding of calculus is essential to do anything beyond aping other people's work or engaging in fashionable tweaking.
Now, I don't think you have to take things to the point where you can do contour integration in your head, understand differential geometry, or intelligently discuss conformal mappings. But a solid knowledge of algebra and trigonometry and a basic understanding of calculus is essential to do anything beyond aping other people's work or engaging in fashionable tweaking.
SY,
I agree with you if you want to be an electronic's designer like Nelson or other top guys but for DIY??? My God, complex #, FFT series....?
There are many members DIY that only knows V=I*R and have done great jobs, of course following others design.
You are scareing DJ and I do not agree with your coments.
I agree with you if you want to be an electronic's designer like Nelson or other top guys but for DIY??? My God, complex #, FFT series....?
There are many members DIY that only knows V=I*R and have done great jobs, of course following others design.
You are scareing DJ and I do not agree with your coments.
Well, geez, I'm in the WINE business, not a hot-shot designer, yet these are all things I've had to use as tools in designing and building my sound systems over the years. If math is scary, that's yet more reason to learn some.
If you don't understand complex numbers, you can't understand phase and all the associated things like delay. If you don't understand how an FFT works (I don't mean being able to explain the Cooley-Tookey algorithm, but understanding the relationships between sampling, frequency bins, resolution, sampling length, windowing, and the like), you can't make intelligent choices in how to take and manipulate the most basic data on speakers and systems.
So, yes, if you just want to build kits, you don't need math. But if you want to get the deep satisfaction of UNDERSTANDING what you're doing or doing something creative, the very basic skills I outlined (and these are high-school level math skills, not anything esoteric) are absolutely necessary.
If you don't understand complex numbers, you can't understand phase and all the associated things like delay. If you don't understand how an FFT works (I don't mean being able to explain the Cooley-Tookey algorithm, but understanding the relationships between sampling, frequency bins, resolution, sampling length, windowing, and the like), you can't make intelligent choices in how to take and manipulate the most basic data on speakers and systems.
So, yes, if you just want to build kits, you don't need math. But if you want to get the deep satisfaction of UNDERSTANDING what you're doing or doing something creative, the very basic skills I outlined (and these are high-school level math skills, not anything esoteric) are absolutely necessary.
SY said:
I think that a bit of imagination and the desire to create something is much more important than the math you described above. If it's really required, you can always find somebody who'll do it for you. I went both through high school and university with technical background, yet, not working for any company designing complicated circuits, still didn't find use for all that math. Actually I forgot almost everything I learned. But I still remember how to calculate parallel resistors though
Just remember what Heinlein said: Someone who can't solve a quadratic equation isn't fully human, he's merely a monkey who has been trained not to make doo-doo in the house. I'm frankly amazed at the number of people who feel that a 17 year old who wants to get involved with a technical hobby shouldn't make the effort to be proficient at high school math.
Sorry to interfere but that's something else from what you posted before. I think no one will disagree that people that want to do any technical hobby need to be proficient at high school math.
As Peter pointed out it can always be useful in life. But I forgot most too I have to admit. Only things that are used frequently stay in the head.
But :
Apart from the differences between energy, force and power this ain't no normal high school math to me.
Many people learned how to do this in high school, but since they don't use it in their daily exsistence, have forgotten how. Do you suggest that the 80%+ of the population who couldn't currently solve a quadratic equation are sub-human?
I agree that it is in a persons best interest to embrace the knowledge that will help them in their endeavors, not run from it because it's difficult.
once upon a time...
I took the "POET" course in the CDN Airforce. Stands for Performance Oriented Electronics Training. They taught me all sorts of complicated things...I was to be a "CRS Tech" Communications Radar Systems Technition. I remember the basics now... thats all.. don't ask me to plot vectors.. or phasers ( which I recall are nothing more than rotating vectors...)
The point is... what I learned is almost useless to me now... what was invalueable was the discipline involved in the learning process. It made me realize I (and anyone else) can learn anything!
zardoz
I took the "POET" course in the CDN Airforce. Stands for Performance Oriented Electronics Training. They taught me all sorts of complicated things...I was to be a "CRS Tech" Communications Radar Systems Technition. I remember the basics now... thats all.. don't ask me to plot vectors.. or phasers ( which I recall are nothing more than rotating vectors...)
The point is... what I learned is almost useless to me now... what was invalueable was the discipline involved in the learning process. It made me realize I (and anyone else) can learn anything!
zardoz
No, Heinlein suggested it. But the truth in what he says is that the majority of people are completely ignorant of math fundamentals, or nearly so. And that's as serious as being illiterate. One of the great shocks to me when I began my stint teaching at a University was how many of my students, high school graduates all and from the top of their classes, couldn't do basic arithmetical operations like adding dissimilar fractions.
i see this in another way.
complex numbers as all math is only a model for reallity. It´s not important to understand the model, you only need to understand as much of reallity as you need to solve your problem.
FFT: you don´t need to undertsand who it works, its only a tool and you need to know what to put in and what to get aout if you weant to use it.
I don´t need to do ballistic studys to use a hammer and hit on a nail. In my experience all these people weo make a religion of math are only able to hit the finger if they try to hit a nail....
Re: Math?
The maths? You CAN do without it, but when you know it, things fall into place beautifully
How do I know? Because I learned electronics from a child. Built and repaired all kinds of things untill I was 30: Then I did my University maths. It was like finding the missing parts of a jigsaw puzzle! The picture became complete.
Cheers,
I agree that the H&H book is a brilliant grounding, and it isn't mathematical.Elso Kwak said:
Sorry Sy, I strongly disagree. Math, do you need that for electronics?
DJ from Israel buy the book "the Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. (Cambridge University Press) Study it day and night from page 1.
Elso/ Chemist into electronics form 11 years old
The maths? You CAN do without it, but when you know it, things fall into place beautifully
How do I know? Because I learned electronics from a child. Built and repaired all kinds of things untill I was 30: Then I did my University maths. It was like finding the missing parts of a jigsaw puzzle! The picture became complete.
Cheers,
At least this is the way they want to make us belive at the university. But: i´m pretty sure our professor who teaches all this thermodynamic stuff with circle processes like otto and stirling will never be able to design an engine. He never seen an real one from the inside i belive.
But i know a man who is boss of a dozend studyed engineers at Volkswagen and they design the W12. This boss has never seen university from the inside - he learned at VW started as a handcrafter.
I don´t say knowledge is bad or wrong. But theory without practice is nonsense. And practice is much more important.
Formal education is a nice thing, but far from necessary. The guy who I hired to run manufacturing and quality for my company never spent a day in college; he got his start in my last company as the grunt who washed emulsions off of silkscreens. But he's a guywho could easily teach a course in statistics, which he found that he had to learn in order to properly implement quality procedures. How else can you explain SPC except through mathematical tools?
Having never taken an engineering course myself, I can appreciate the virtues of autodidacts.
Having never taken an engineering course myself, I can appreciate the virtues of autodidacts.
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