I'm not fascinated with math (else I would do math as a hobby, not audio). But I recognize that it's the single most useful tool for understanding the physical Universe. And for knowing the difference between a Bode plot and a bodacious ta-ta.
Lest my statement that you quoted be misleading, I do have formal technical training, just not in any engineering discipline.
Lest my statement that you quoted be misleading, I do have formal technical training, just not in any engineering discipline.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, the majority of people are completely ignorant of math fundamentals. No, this doesn't leave them as handicapped as a person who is illiterate. Not even close.
My own father spent 40+ years in the semiconductor business and just finished his career as a VP for a sizeable company. He was making well into 6 figures, traveled the globe, and spoke at many conferences and seminars. He will likely do some consulting work in his semi-retirement. He never went to college, and certainly didn't do quadratic equations, complex fractions or any other math for the past 20 years or so, aside from common equations solved with a calculator. He also wasn't as handicapped as an illiterate person would have been.
I got an A in college algebra and an A in college trig last year. Do I remember the difference between sine, cosine, tangent etc? Not a chance. Want to know why? Because I have not done a single trig problem since finishing the course. The first chapter in any good math textbook will always reinforce one thing- if you don't work problems every day you will forget how to do them. Most people don't have to work these problems every day, and therfore have forgotten how to do them. How does this leave them at a serious disadvantage? The same disadvantage as an illiterate person?
Lassie made seven figures. It doesn't necessarily take knowledge or membership in Homo Sapiens to make money (look at Michael Jackson!), but it sure helps.
If you get into audio as a hobby and you set your sights higher than just knocking off someone else's work or building kits or doing fashion tweaks, you'll use those sines and cosines. Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent.
If you get into audio as a hobby and you set your sights higher than just knocking off someone else's work or building kits or doing fashion tweaks, you'll use those sines and cosines. Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent.
The world isn't so black and white, Sy. There is a grey middle area.
When one knows basic mathematics the rest can be learned on one's own demand.
Until now I have worked in technological professions only and my education was economics and languages originally. But I learned my basic mathematics although it should be upgraded sometime.
On the other hand I know guys that study electronics with mathematics for years and get stuck at designing an opamp circuit.
When one knows basic mathematics the rest can be learned on one's own demand.
Until now I have worked in technological professions only and my education was economics and languages originally. But I learned my basic mathematics although it should be upgraded sometime.
On the other hand I know guys that study electronics with mathematics for years and get stuck at designing an opamp circuit.
I'm actually arguing for the grey. I don't think a hobbyist needs to be a walking table of Laplace Transforms. But that's a far cry from not understanding that (and why) if you shift the phase of a sine wave by 90 degrees, you get a cosine wave. Or not understanding the relationships between time and frequency domains. Or not understanding how mappings of impedance in the complex plane give information on speakers' drive angles, resonances, box tuning, and so on.
Case study: My current project is to try and design a direct drive amp for my soon-to-arrive (I hope!) ESL panels. How much current will it take to drive the panels to 2000V at 20kHz? The math to solve this is not arcane, but it DOES take some knowledge of trig, algebra, and the way I solved it, some simple calculus.
Case study: My current project is to try and design a direct drive amp for my soon-to-arrive (I hope!) ESL panels. How much current will it take to drive the panels to 2000V at 20kHz? The math to solve this is not arcane, but it DOES take some knowledge of trig, algebra, and the way I solved it, some simple calculus.
Not everybody has the same expectations from this hobby. Learning is, in my view, continuous and adaptive. A person has the opportunity to learn something new every day and may steer the process to areas of interest.
As useful as math is, and as important as it has been to me all my life, I would recommend to any one new to the hobby massive doses of common sense. Do not take unnecessary risks. Ask an experienced person before you try something that can put you in a dangerous situation. Study in depth only those subjects that really get you interested.
As for the general lack of math knowledge by most people in the world, that is both true and sad. The financial institutions for example, thrive on the fact that most consumers don’t realize how much financing those credit card and automobile purchases is costing them. If they only knew…
As useful as math is, and as important as it has been to me all my life, I would recommend to any one new to the hobby massive doses of common sense. Do not take unnecessary risks. Ask an experienced person before you try something that can put you in a dangerous situation. Study in depth only those subjects that really get you interested.
As for the general lack of math knowledge by most people in the world, that is both true and sad. The financial institutions for example, thrive on the fact that most consumers don’t realize how much financing those credit card and automobile purchases is costing them. If they only knew…
I agree and I disagree here.
Personally, I never studied electronics, apart from what I learned in books here and there.
But there was and still is the passion for the electrons.
I'm very bad at maths, even ohm's law is written on a peace of paper which I always have nearby when I (try) to 'create' something.
I can assure you that frustration is high, when I struggle with
maths and it takes ours to find out what others can see almost in a eyewink.
I just don't have a head for maths...I'm a practical guy.
Years ago, I was lucky to meet someone who taught me the practice of electronics i.e. repairing all kind of stuff.
Now I can make a living out of it.
There are sometimes 'difficult cases', that I can't repair and decide to send over to service centres or the factory.
In 90% of the cases I get a fax or phone that they are unable to find the problem. Or give me another 'commercial' explanation.
I can say that no one, even the highest graduated among us
will repair a TV or video or similar 'consumer electronics' without
having a hard time if there's more than a 'blown fuse', if they don’t have the practice.
This job needs practice. The people on this forum, who are into repair, will recognize what I say. One almost never repairs something with maths.
Building and creating circuits is something different. Look how a thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&threadid=11205
is almost completely helpless without knowledge of people who learned to understand circuits and do the maths. I’m quite involved there in trying to build something decent. I succeeded and was very happy with the result. But don’t ask me what I build. And that’s the frustrating part.
To turn back on DJ’s amp: I’m sure someone will have to give him a simple recipe, something he can build without having to think about in and output impedances, gain, bias, distortion factors, and so on.
If people like him (and don’t get me wrong here) first have to learn maths, they will never have a project they can be proud of. They will be obliged to ‘copy’ something from the smart thinkers. But in the end they will be very happy and very proud of what they build.
Not all of us can be engineers…
/Hugo – U=I*R??????
Personally, I never studied electronics, apart from what I learned in books here and there.
But there was and still is the passion for the electrons.
I'm very bad at maths, even ohm's law is written on a peace of paper which I always have nearby when I (try) to 'create' something.
I can assure you that frustration is high, when I struggle with
maths and it takes ours to find out what others can see almost in a eyewink.
I just don't have a head for maths...I'm a practical guy.
Years ago, I was lucky to meet someone who taught me the practice of electronics i.e. repairing all kind of stuff.
Now I can make a living out of it.
There are sometimes 'difficult cases', that I can't repair and decide to send over to service centres or the factory.
In 90% of the cases I get a fax or phone that they are unable to find the problem. Or give me another 'commercial' explanation.
I can say that no one, even the highest graduated among us
will repair a TV or video or similar 'consumer electronics' without
having a hard time if there's more than a 'blown fuse', if they don’t have the practice.
This job needs practice. The people on this forum, who are into repair, will recognize what I say. One almost never repairs something with maths.
Building and creating circuits is something different. Look how a thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&threadid=11205
is almost completely helpless without knowledge of people who learned to understand circuits and do the maths. I’m quite involved there in trying to build something decent. I succeeded and was very happy with the result. But don’t ask me what I build. And that’s the frustrating part.
To turn back on DJ’s amp: I’m sure someone will have to give him a simple recipe, something he can build without having to think about in and output impedances, gain, bias, distortion factors, and so on.
If people like him (and don’t get me wrong here) first have to learn maths, they will never have a project they can be proud of. They will be obliged to ‘copy’ something from the smart thinkers. But in the end they will be very happy and very proud of what they build.
Not all of us can be engineers…
/Hugo – U=I*R??????
My 2 cents...
I'm in college right now to get my EE degree, I know the math.
My dad, he doesn't know any math. 3+10...get the calculator. But if he needs a new house, he can build one. If the car breaks down, he can take the engine apart and put it back together (no leftover parts ). And last year when the TV broke he took it apart and rebuilt it.
I can't do any of that.
Jason
I'm in college right now to get my EE degree, I know the math.
My dad, he doesn't know any math. 3+10...get the calculator. But if he needs a new house, he can build one. If the car breaks down, he can take the engine apart and put it back together (no leftover parts
). And last year when the TV broke he took it apart and rebuilt it. I can't do any of that.
Jason
Just to add something to the discussion:
I studied computer sciences in Germany. In Germany you can go to university in two different ways: Classical University (harder, very theoretical approach) and "Fachhochschule", roughly translatable as "Specialized University" (easier, more practical approach).
I did "Kerninformatik" ~ core informatics at the "classical" university. My second course was electrotechnical studies.
And I have to tell you that I dropped out because of math and the overall lack of practical appliances of that mathematical stuff. And that with the highest possible degree in math in the advanced math course in school.
Nowadays I "just" work as a programmer, after two years of hard work leaving a lot of studied people behind, simply because they tend to think too much about stuff and never get anything done in time (and I never once did use the "Pumping Lemma", "NP-complete-theory" in my job). The only sad thing that most of the time in Germany you don't get paid for what you achieve, but for what papers from university you have... I am lucky that Im the exception to the rule...
But anyway, back to the point, I have to say that I have nearly forgotten all the mathematical stuff I once knew. Of course I can solve equations, and stuff like that, but complex numbers, especially in combination with electronics (like doing the stuff SPICE does "by head", analyzing networks and so on) I have seemed to almost completely forgotten.
I would say that having understood how a basic class A amp, or class AB amp work, you could design amplifiers with SPICE and other simulators nearly without really understanding the math behind it (but you should have some understanding of the physics).
And I know some people who maybe would be interested in a hobby like DIY hifi, or other specialized stuff, and of course would also seek advice in forums like this one, but often they tell me that they have a feeling that the "oldtimers" on those forums wear their noses a little bit too high, often forgetting how they started some years ago...
Of course I also dislike "newbies" never really trying to understand complex answers, asking the same questions over and over again until somebody does not try to explain the answer, but simply tells them what to do. But that's very common today, always take the easy way out...
Feeling a little bit philosophical here...
Bye,
Arndt
I studied computer sciences in Germany. In Germany you can go to university in two different ways: Classical University (harder, very theoretical approach) and "Fachhochschule", roughly translatable as "Specialized University" (easier, more practical approach).
I did "Kerninformatik" ~ core informatics at the "classical" university. My second course was electrotechnical studies.
And I have to tell you that I dropped out because of math and the overall lack of practical appliances of that mathematical stuff. And that with the highest possible degree in math in the advanced math course in school.
Nowadays I "just" work as a programmer, after two years of hard work leaving a lot of studied people behind, simply because they tend to think too much about stuff and never get anything done in time (and I never once did use the "Pumping Lemma", "NP-complete-theory" in my job). The only sad thing that most of the time in Germany you don't get paid for what you achieve, but for what papers from university you have... I am lucky that Im the exception to the rule...
But anyway, back to the point, I have to say that I have nearly forgotten all the mathematical stuff I once knew. Of course I can solve equations, and stuff like that, but complex numbers, especially in combination with electronics (like doing the stuff SPICE does "by head", analyzing networks and so on) I have seemed to almost completely forgotten.
I would say that having understood how a basic class A amp, or class AB amp work, you could design amplifiers with SPICE and other simulators nearly without really understanding the math behind it (but you should have some understanding of the physics).
And I know some people who maybe would be interested in a hobby like DIY hifi, or other specialized stuff, and of course would also seek advice in forums like this one, but often they tell me that they have a feeling that the "oldtimers" on those forums wear their noses a little bit too high, often forgetting how they started some years ago...
Of course I also dislike "newbies" never really trying to understand complex answers, asking the same questions over and over again until somebody does not try to explain the answer, but simply tells them what to do. But that's very common today, always take the easy way out...
Feeling a little bit philosophical here...
Bye,
Arndt
Jason and Arndt: Your points speak to something else that drives me crazy. Some years ago, I was responsible for recruiting a young engineer for a firm I worked for. I went to the job fair at one of our better universities (Cal Poly SLO) and met some bright young guys. When I brought them in for interviews, one of the things I did was to take an ostentatiously unplugged and cool soldering iron and casually touch them on the arm with it. Of ten candidates for the job, nine of them didn't flinch. The tenth one did, and THAT's the one I hired. He was terrific for us, went on to become one of the founders of 3Com, and today is rich enough to buy and sell his old mentor a hundred times over. But I suspect that, besides his ability to solder, he knew what the integral of sine (wt + ø) is.
It's possible to get through a University engineering program and not ever have actually touched a capacitor. Or to ever have had to troubleshoot a circuit. That's nuts. And if it isn't clear, I'm the LAST one to ever say that theoretical knowledge is the be all and end all (my engineers had to learn SY's Four Laws, the second of which is, "Stop speculating and do the $#@*ing experiment.").
But doing a design without being armed with essential math skills is equally nuts- anyone care to tell me how to solve my ESL problem without using math?
It's possible to get through a University engineering program and not ever have actually touched a capacitor. Or to ever have had to troubleshoot a circuit. That's nuts. And if it isn't clear, I'm the LAST one to ever say that theoretical knowledge is the be all and end all (my engineers had to learn SY's Four Laws, the second of which is, "Stop speculating and do the $#@*ing experiment.").
But doing a design without being armed with essential math skills is equally nuts- anyone care to tell me how to solve my ESL problem without using math?
BTW, regarding the use of SPICE and other simulators, Bob Pease tells a delightful story in his book about a young engineer who comes up with a way to drastically improve the efficiency of the plant. He takes his sim to an old-timer, who examines it and says, "This look pretty good, except that the 17 degree (Fahrenheit) water is gonna be a bit rough on the pumps."
I have a garage full of auto parts
I had to do 4 sections of calculus as a chemistry major/physics minor. I used a little of it to do linear programming in grad school -- the next time I used it was a simple Newtonian approximation on the trading desk of a wall street firm I worked for. It's very interesting to see the number of refugees from electrical engineering who work in finance and financial derivatives!
Oh, the chemistry was invaluable. You get really good at putting puzzles together.
Jason_N said:If the car breaks down, he can take the engine apart and put it back together (no leftover parts
Jason
I had to do 4 sections of calculus as a chemistry major/physics minor. I used a little of it to do linear programming in grad school -- the next time I used it was a simple Newtonian approximation on the trading desk of a wall street firm I worked for. It's very interesting to see the number of refugees from electrical engineering who work in finance and financial derivatives!
Oh, the chemistry was invaluable. You get really good at putting puzzles together.
SY, you are a clever and extremely well educated old guy. DJ is someone different like you. Sometime we need to position ourselves in other people’s situation in order to be helpful and to be objective (I sometimes need to access the poster’s profile to understand his needs and give my answer). All you have said are reasonable, but still in a “subjective” area.
As you said, DIY electronics is a hobby, something that gives us fun. Many of us not building amplifiers just to get a good sounding amp with less money. One’s time is sometimes even more costly.
Most of electronics hobbyists are not that well “educated”. Educated people mostly lay their hands on money and get someone else to get what they want with the money, and have fun with something other than electronics (collecting antiques may be?). Then what if a well educated person have a hobby in electronics??? Still, I would rather learn from you on how to make money and build my own company, but learn electronics from someone else here in this forum. I myself love mathematics, and that’s my calculation.
---------------------------------------------------------------
“OK, I'll admit to being a total ignoramus when it comes to this computer stuff, so if you have ideas to help me, use nice, simple words, maybe at a 10-year-old level.” - SY
As you said, DIY electronics is a hobby, something that gives us fun. Many of us not building amplifiers just to get a good sounding amp with less money. One’s time is sometimes even more costly.
Most of electronics hobbyists are not that well “educated”. Educated people mostly lay their hands on money and get someone else to get what they want with the money, and have fun with something other than electronics (collecting antiques may be?). Then what if a well educated person have a hobby in electronics??? Still, I would rather learn from you on how to make money and build my own company, but learn electronics from someone else here in this forum. I myself love mathematics, and that’s my calculation.
---------------------------------------------------------------
“OK, I'll admit to being a total ignoramus when it comes to this computer stuff, so if you have ideas to help me, use nice, simple words, maybe at a 10-year-old level.” - SY
Jay said:
Educated doesn't always equate to wealthy. It's often an important contibuting factor, and that people with more edcuation tend to have higher incomes, but its not a hard and fast rule. Also don't associate pieces of paper with education. Bill Gates may not have finished University before we founded Microsoft, but I doubt anyone would call him uneduated.
In my opinion one of the biggest factors in achieving success, both finacial and personal, is to always be willing to learn new things, and not just when your boss tells you, but to actively search for oppourtinities to try something new, take a night class, read a book.
I enjoy electronics because it is enjoyable, it gives me a chance to unwind and relax. I could easily afford to go out and buy high-end equipment and pay someone to set it all up for me, but where is the fun in that? I don't learn anything new, I don't have the pride in making something with my own hands and brain. The building is just as enjoyable as the listening.
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