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Old 8th April 2002, 04:47 PM   #11
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I totally agree with you and I'm currently working on a project using CD-PRO2 transport and four paralleled AD 1865K DACs. Harry, Jocko and others who don't take non-oversampling seriously: did you ever do actual listening comparisons or your opinions are based on technical speculations only?
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Old 8th April 2002, 06:09 PM   #12
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Talking OS vs NON-OS DAC

Hi Ergo,
I agree 100% with you. My NON-OS KWAK- DAC blew the Theta V DAC of my friend straight away! And that was with four AD1851. Now it is even better with two AD1865N-K and asynchronous reclocking. The latter technique also accused of being a "technically incorrect "solution; haha!, but also giving better sound!
I was sceptical too but sometimes I can't withstand to do some silly experiments.....and let my ears decide.......

I don't know anything about software but if you have a Philips transport you can very easily use the TDA1541AS1 without gluelogic.
If you wish to use a Analog Devices DAC use there Application Note 207. Especially the Philips CD960 is very easily to convert to NON-OS. I have a friend in Taiwan who installed the KWAK-CLOCK and the NON-OS mod in less than a hour.
I find the Dasy-laser website VERY confusing
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Old 8th April 2002, 06:55 PM   #13
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Question Elso, How is harshness on your DAC?


one of the worst offencers in DACs for me is harshness or uncalmness. I don't know how to describe it better, but it gives me listening fatigue.

Does your DAC currently solve this problem so common on many dacs?
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Old 8th April 2002, 07:30 PM   #14
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Since I haven't alienated everyone........ YET.............! [joke]

I have been working on digital audio since '87. I don't have to listen to it because I know it will sound like a Wadia. If that is the sound you like, then go buy a used one. I'm sure they can be had cheap. Then you can take it apart and learn how bit shifting works, and do this parallel DAC thing the right way. Maybe if we ask nice, my old buddy "Toslink" will post the schematics to save you the hassle.

The people I know that still do this full-time think this is the silliest thing they have heard of. Because they have heard the Wadias, the Thetas (parts farm designed by a Scientologist), and all the other "gold-plated turds". They are more concerned as to which works better: Crystal delta-sigma or Burr-Brown linear DAC setups.

Maybe I'm just lucky: I have clean power supplies, good grounding, and an I/V stage that does not use an op-amp. I know what my designs sound like, as do numerous audiophiles who quietly keep the secret on who made it sound so good.

Peace, man,

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Old 8th April 2002, 08:27 PM   #15
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Lightbulb Jocko, can you explain

I listened to Mark Levinson separate DAC + transport in non-upsampled mode and compared it to my Philips 962SA SACD player in red book mode.

The philips supposedly has ultra-low jitter, muse fine gold caps and good burr-brown op-amps and the rest of audiophilie doodah, except a separate power supply for each stage.

Now, the listening test:

I was never a believer in audible differences between cd players, because I hadn't heard any remarkable differences.

But on that listening the differences were very obvious:

ML was more calm, less harsh, less grit and much more pleasant to listen to. No listening fatigue. Still it resolved all the same detail as the Philips.

Philips had more harshness, less bass definition, higher noise on some tracks and harpsicord plucks tended to decay much, much faster than on the ML.

I was totally flabbergasted to hear such big differences. Me, a completely untrained and inexperienced listener!

So, now that I've heard a player that has no harshness, what should I do?

How would I even start to upgrade my player to be less harsh on cd playback.

I don't want/need Mark Levinson level playback - I just want sound that I can enjoy.

Any and all tips are welcome.

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Old 8th April 2002, 08:33 PM   #16
jkeny is offline jkeny  Ireland
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Ergo, Elso,
I agree, I pay attention to expressed opinions from people who actually listen to the sound and judge for themselves not base their opinions on technical grounds alone.

Thanks for your input. The 4 times oversampling is actually done in the SAA7378 decoder so changing the DAC won't help until I can resolve this. The SAA7378 chip performs lots of functions including allowing the ability to read CDR & CDRW discs. I am reluctant to change this also.
All I really wanted was to form a group of people who would download and experiment with this software to get it working & thereby have a software tool for non-os experimentation in CDPs using DSA protocol (Philips CDPs only?)

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Old 8th April 2002, 09:04 PM   #17
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Lightbulb Harshness

Hi Halcyon,
With the asynchronous reclocking 95 % of the harshness is gone. Also the Wildmonkeysects loopfilter does a lot and using the low noise +5V supply for the PLL. Will try the CS8414 shortly, lets see what that brings.
But if your ears are very senstive to this issue use the TDA1541AS!. This one has <B>ASOLUTELY</B> no harshness, but I miss the sparkle and bass power of the AD.
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Old 8th April 2002, 09:46 PM   #18
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I don't have the magic answer. I can tell you that exectution makes all the difference.

Example: Magnavox CDB-472. Look at the schematic......looks ok......everything going to the right place.

Then look at the actual circuit board. The grounding is horrible. Fix it, and it sounds much better. When I first saw one, I screamed that I would have fired the junior engineer that screwed up the grounding.

Then it dawned on autorouter did it. No wonder it sounded rotten.

Some designs are more tolerable of poor execution than others. Some there is no hope for. Some sound astouding, but only if done right.

Just because a "high-end" company did it, is no reason to assume that they really did it any better than a giant international conglomerate that doesn't care less.

I've looked inside all of them. You would be surprised who does it right, and who gets by on reputation.

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Old 8th April 2002, 11:42 PM   #19
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Ok Jocko so no Wadia and no Theta then.
Could you please name a commercial dac that is an example of
"Digital done right" to borrow a phrase.

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Old 8th April 2002, 11:55 PM   #20
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Default Digital done right

Why should he help others sell DACs? Is he a reviewer now?
Ask him the design approaches that make a good design. I though the name of this forum was Do It Yourself Audio.......


P.S. I think the Wadia blows also. I modified one to sound better by taking parts out of the SPDIF frount end to get the reflections down! I own two DACs by the way. One from Scott Nixon and one from Jocko.
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