I have heard that some DVD players have 5 audio ouputs with its own decoder so that you can build your own pre/power amps and get your own home theatre without buying a comercial AV receiver.
2 questions:
1. is this possible / feasible?
2. does anyone know of any specific DVD suitable for this use?
Why would I do this?
1. save the cost of the receiver
2. comercial HT receivers are either very expensive or make a lot of compromises with power supply and heatsink - some also use fans
3. I want to put in good quality bindings posts, etc which seem to only be included on high priced units
4. this allows me to also use bi-amping (again, only high priced units have pre-out/main in to all channels to allow this)
Thanks in advance,
Paul
2 questions:
1. is this possible / feasible?
2. does anyone know of any specific DVD suitable for this use?
Why would I do this?
1. save the cost of the receiver
2. comercial HT receivers are either very expensive or make a lot of compromises with power supply and heatsink - some also use fans
3. I want to put in good quality bindings posts, etc which seem to only be included on high priced units
4. this allows me to also use bi-amping (again, only high priced units have pre-out/main in to all channels to allow this)
Thanks in advance,
Paul
Well the DVD player would have to have a volume control for one thing. Not many of the lower priced onboard decoders have this feature (easily accessible). You could look into a standalone decoder made by technics several years ago that was basically a dolby digital decoder with a volume controll built in. I think brand new they went for like $300, so they should be much less than that by now. Can't remember the part number but something like SH-AC3000 or something like that. Anyways it at least got a good review by Audio or Stereo Review. Harmon Kardon's and Yamaha's have had binding posts and pre-amp outputs all almost all their recievers for years. Check out Harmon Outlet for an idea.
Volume control - I was intending to make preamps to handle that, that will do fine won't it?
Would I be missing out on anything significant with this approach? (apart from the bells and whistles that aren't really necessary)
I have considered getting a 2nd hand separate decoder, although when I start doing that, I wonder if I'm really saving any money, or if this approach would be worthwhile.
Suggestions, comments anyone?
Has anyone tried something like what I'm suggeting?
Would I be missing out on anything significant with this approach? (apart from the bells and whistles that aren't really necessary)
I have considered getting a 2nd hand separate decoder, although when I start doing that, I wonder if I'm really saving any money, or if this approach would be worthwhile.
Suggestions, comments anyone?
Has anyone tried something like what I'm suggeting?
No, you could just use a 24 step rotary knob or something and make a relay controlled volume control. That way one main rotary knob can control as many channels as you want. Usually if the DVD player has a decoder built in it can handle boost and cut (for example the LFE).
You could also use relays to switch other video/audio feeds.
So basically a box with a bunch of relays, a bunch of resistors and a pot
Like I said you can buy descent AV recievers with Dolby Digital and DTS and stuff for ~$300, hell I've seen ones as cheap as $180 (not nice though!). You could then go through and systematically upgrade parts.
You could also use relays to switch other video/audio feeds.
So basically a box with a bunch of relays, a bunch of resistors and a pot
Like I said you can buy descent AV recievers with Dolby Digital and DTS and stuff for ~$300, hell I've seen ones as cheap as $180 (not nice though!). You could then go through and systematically upgrade parts.
$180!!!!! ... that is definately in the USA!!!!!!
It's AUD $1000 to get a HT receiver that actually has preouts! (unless you go 2nd hand)
Where could I find out about this rotary knob thing? ... is it a passive volume control?
What is a relay controlled volume? ... are they relays there to switch from different sources? What are they doing?
upgrading a cheaper HT receiver ... I could get it 2ndhand (I would'nt want to touch anything with a warranty ....) ... so in other words, get one and start messing with it, putting in better binding posts, intercepting the pre - power amp interface and putting in preout/main in connections, etc ... hadn't considered that, but it sounds like a good idea actually. Not sure if I'm up to the challenge just yet, but sounds interesting!
thanks for the tips
It's AUD $1000 to get a HT receiver that actually has preouts! (unless you go 2nd hand)
Where could I find out about this rotary knob thing? ... is it a passive volume control?
What is a relay controlled volume? ... are they relays there to switch from different sources? What are they doing?
upgrading a cheaper HT receiver ... I could get it 2ndhand (I would'nt want to touch anything with a warranty ....) ... so in other words, get one and start messing with it, putting in better binding posts, intercepting the pre - power amp interface and putting in preout/main in connections, etc ... hadn't considered that, but it sounds like a good idea actually. Not sure if I'm up to the challenge just yet, but sounds interesting!
thanks for the tips
Hi,
It sounds like you and I have similar desires. I've been using a Technics SH-AC300 processor to do volume control and pre-outs; I then use external active crossovers and amps. These units can be had in the U.S. as cheaply as US$50 used and are actually of rather high quality, if not exactly hi-fi. I have some info on my website. There is also the more expenive 500d version which supports DTS.
I think this is easier than POOGEing a digital receiver as the receiver has a lot more extraneous garbage in it.
What I am currently working on is an all-in-one-box DIY solution, using either a Technics decoder, Extigy board, or something similar for AC-3 decoding. I'll use my own DACs and implement volume control outside of the processor. The prime benefits other than sound quality is the flexibilty to bypass the processor in PCM mode, and to have access to a digital pre-out for room EQ.
My biggest to-do is the uC side...I need to implement volume control for the three AD1853 DACs.
It sounds like you and I have similar desires. I've been using a Technics SH-AC300 processor to do volume control and pre-outs; I then use external active crossovers and amps. These units can be had in the U.S. as cheaply as US$50 used and are actually of rather high quality, if not exactly hi-fi. I have some info on my website. There is also the more expenive 500d version which supports DTS.
I think this is easier than POOGEing a digital receiver as the receiver has a lot more extraneous garbage in it.
What I am currently working on is an all-in-one-box DIY solution, using either a Technics decoder, Extigy board, or something similar for AC-3 decoding. I'll use my own DACs and implement volume control outside of the processor. The prime benefits other than sound quality is the flexibilty to bypass the processor in PCM mode, and to have access to a digital pre-out for room EQ.
My biggest to-do is the uC side...I need to implement volume control for the three AD1853 DACs.
audioXpress
a few months ago audioXpress magazine had a volume control project, if i remember correctly, that was for multiple channels (surrounds, etc.) and included a main volume as well as volume controls for each speaker. i forget if there were other features. but i thought i'd mention it in case you're interested.
i believe it was actually aimed at SACD usage. doesn't seem to matter though, a channel is a channel.
/andrew
a few months ago audioXpress magazine had a volume control project, if i remember correctly, that was for multiple channels (surrounds, etc.) and included a main volume as well as volume controls for each speaker. i forget if there were other features. but i thought i'd mention it in case you're interested.
i believe it was actually aimed at SACD usage. doesn't seem to matter though, a channel is a channel.
/andrew
There are a fair number of units that have DD and DTS decoders on-board. I think the number has increased with the growing acceptance of DVD-A and SACD - if you have to have 5.1 outputs for the hi-res surround formats, why not throw in DD/DTS as well, since I suspect it only costs a couple bucks.
The question is how much do you want to spend? The cheapest I've heard of that has garnered decent word-of-mouth on AVS is the cheapie pioneer universal DVD/DVD-A/SACD player - it runs under $200 US (don't know the model number).
I have the Pioneer 45A which is good and available now for about $300 or so.
Up from there somewhere is the Denon 2900, but that runs almost $1000.
As everyone has pointed out, the only real problem is volume control. I also have no reference to compare the quality of the decoding/output vs the typical receiver. I suspect that there are only a couple chips that handle this, so it should be comparable but I haven't verified that.
The question is how much do you want to spend? The cheapest I've heard of that has garnered decent word-of-mouth on AVS is the cheapie pioneer universal DVD/DVD-A/SACD player - it runs under $200 US (don't know the model number).
I have the Pioneer 45A which is good and available now for about $300 or so.
Up from there somewhere is the Denon 2900, but that runs almost $1000.
As everyone has pointed out, the only real problem is volume control. I also have no reference to compare the quality of the decoding/output vs the typical receiver. I suspect that there are only a couple chips that handle this, so it should be comparable but I haven't verified that.
The 5.1 output DVD-A/SACD players are great. I have a Sony DVP-NC650V. The decoding is all on board. Don't use any of the downmix settings as DTS, AC3 and SACD-Multi is automatically sent to the 6 surround outputs. There are no "soundfield" options like on the cheap HT receivers, but I don't consider that a drawback. Really, who needs stuff to sound like a "church" or some other wacky environment. It's quite an unwarranted option on the other machines.
If you follow the spec speaker placements for surround sound, you will get what you need but just adding amplification and speakers. I use active studio monitors. Ultra-accurate and very inexpensive when compared with hi-end gear.
Most of the cheap HT receivers use some kind of PGA for volume control. You could do just as well with a 6 input 6 output preamp/mixer/attenuator. I use a 4-buss mixer right now with a phantom centre and the sub mono and low-passed from L/R channels.
You'll know you did it right when Norman Osborne and the Green Goblin have an unbelievably spatial argument in Spiderman.
Enjoy.
ensen.
If you follow the spec speaker placements for surround sound, you will get what you need but just adding amplification and speakers. I use active studio monitors. Ultra-accurate and very inexpensive when compared with hi-end gear.
Most of the cheap HT receivers use some kind of PGA for volume control. You could do just as well with a 6 input 6 output preamp/mixer/attenuator. I use a 4-buss mixer right now with a phantom centre and the sub mono and low-passed from L/R channels.
You'll know you did it right when Norman Osborne and the Green Goblin have an unbelievably spatial argument in Spiderman.
Enjoy.
ensen.
What do you think of things like all the soundfield options offered by yamaha HT receivers? I have read a little about them (only advertising stuff I must admit), but they seem generally well regarded ... yes, I'm inclined to agree that I dont' really want it to sound like a church - that kind of artificialness, when trying to digitally create an environment with totally different acoustics that is out of scale and character with your listening room, isn't effective IMO.
The consensus seems so far that DVD players that have a decoder are just as good. But what about the separate decoders such as those offered by the Yamaha? I have seen some for $300 or less, can a DVD player offer the same thing as an extra without making compromises that are noticeably inferior?
So we have three possibilities:
DVD with inbuilt decoder
separate decoder (which I can get 2nd hand fairly cheap)
HT receiver
Forgetting bells and whistles, are there any quality differences?
Thanks for your help so far guys, it has been great
The consensus seems so far that DVD players that have a decoder are just as good. But what about the separate decoders such as those offered by the Yamaha? I have seen some for $300 or less, can a DVD player offer the same thing as an extra without making compromises that are noticeably inferior?
So we have three possibilities:
DVD with inbuilt decoder
separate decoder (which I can get 2nd hand fairly cheap)
HT receiver
Forgetting bells and whistles, are there any quality differences?
Thanks for your help so far guys, it has been great
My comparison...
First, what ever you do, stay away from those all in one packages. They're all horrible (relatively speaking since most people I know couldn't tell the difference).
Option 3: HT Receiver
Decent sounding receivers are around $2500 Cdn, which is curiously about the same as an entry level surround preamp. Can I assume we are in the same financial boat? - ie. leaking...
As for the older receivers, my parent's house has an old Yamaha RXV model receiver with a number of surround pre-sets.
I think these settings are Pro-Logic, Pro-Logic Enhanced, 70mm Theatre, TV Theatre, Concert Hall, Jazz Club, Church and Rock/Pop. They have it constantly set to Jazz Club and the reverb is noticable and often annoying. I've tried the others just to check. Rock/Pop has the mids removed. Church has excessive reverb like a cathedral. Concert Hall has minimal delay on the rear channels but even more reverb than Jazz Club. TV Theatre sounds the most normal. 70mm Theatre is good for "big" blockbuster type movies and the Pro-Logic settings do not do surround as good as the two theatre settings.
None of those settings even comes close to the surround delivery of my own system. It's not the speakers as their Mordaunt-Shorts are pretty good for bookshelf sized units. It might be the placement, but even when that is slightly off at home, the decoder still flies sounds around fairly well. I'm guessing that the on-board DSP chip is pretty crappy.
Option 2: Separate decoder
This depends on what you call cheap. Around here, these are a very rare find in second hand so prices tend to be closer to new - or about the same as a decent sounding HT receiver. Anything less than that and the lack of sound quality if obvious.
Option 1: 6-ch DVD player.
I haven't check around, but Sony has dropped the prices on their entry level SACD players. Some of those are SACD multi-channel and then some of those are also DVD. You should be able to get 6-ch DVD/SACD for around $400 Cdn or less. The analog circuits are slightly better than the other in the same price point to show that SACD is better than CD. It doesn't have to be much, but enough to make the difference. Just under audiophile quality for the cost of consumer equipment!
YBA (Copland) makes an 6-ch analog only pre-amp for about $1000 Cdn. No extra digital circuits. Just add amps and away you go.
You can do what I did and start with an old Teac 2A 6x4 mixer. One day, I might get 3 stereo preamps of the same model and have a 6-ch volume control with single remote.
With this set-up, if you build a bunch of GCs you'd be all set.
ensen.
First, what ever you do, stay away from those all in one packages. They're all horrible (relatively speaking since most people I know couldn't tell the difference).
Option 3: HT Receiver
Decent sounding receivers are around $2500 Cdn, which is curiously about the same as an entry level surround preamp. Can I assume we are in the same financial boat? - ie. leaking...
As for the older receivers, my parent's house has an old Yamaha RXV model receiver with a number of surround pre-sets.
I think these settings are Pro-Logic, Pro-Logic Enhanced, 70mm Theatre, TV Theatre, Concert Hall, Jazz Club, Church and Rock/Pop. They have it constantly set to Jazz Club and the reverb is noticable and often annoying. I've tried the others just to check. Rock/Pop has the mids removed. Church has excessive reverb like a cathedral. Concert Hall has minimal delay on the rear channels but even more reverb than Jazz Club. TV Theatre sounds the most normal. 70mm Theatre is good for "big" blockbuster type movies and the Pro-Logic settings do not do surround as good as the two theatre settings.
None of those settings even comes close to the surround delivery of my own system. It's not the speakers as their Mordaunt-Shorts are pretty good for bookshelf sized units. It might be the placement, but even when that is slightly off at home, the decoder still flies sounds around fairly well. I'm guessing that the on-board DSP chip is pretty crappy.
Option 2: Separate decoder
This depends on what you call cheap. Around here, these are a very rare find in second hand so prices tend to be closer to new - or about the same as a decent sounding HT receiver. Anything less than that and the lack of sound quality if obvious.
Option 1: 6-ch DVD player.
I haven't check around, but Sony has dropped the prices on their entry level SACD players. Some of those are SACD multi-channel and then some of those are also DVD. You should be able to get 6-ch DVD/SACD for around $400 Cdn or less. The analog circuits are slightly better than the other in the same price point to show that SACD is better than CD. It doesn't have to be much, but enough to make the difference. Just under audiophile quality for the cost of consumer equipment!
YBA (Copland) makes an 6-ch analog only pre-amp for about $1000 Cdn. No extra digital circuits. Just add amps and away you go.
You can do what I did and start with an old Teac 2A 6x4 mixer. One day, I might get 3 stereo preamps of the same model and have a 6-ch volume control with single remote.
With this set-up, if you build a bunch of GCs you'd be all set.
ensen.
I have my first chip amp in the works at the moment, so haven't really got to hear one just yet. What do you think of chip amps? How would they compare to HT receivers?
Another question: what exactly is discrete amplifier channel? ie does it mean each channel uses a separate power supply?
Ht receivers start at $700 for an entry level Yamaha over here, but you can get a Yamaha decoder for under $300 secondhand at some hifi shops. I'm a bit wary of secondhand in equipment that has so much that can go wrong!
Another question: what exactly is discrete amplifier channel? ie does it mean each channel uses a separate power supply?
Ht receivers start at $700 for an entry level Yamaha over here, but you can get a Yamaha decoder for under $300 secondhand at some hifi shops. I'm a bit wary of secondhand in equipment that has so much that can go wrong!
What I should have said about that Yamaha is the amount of noise it creates. Even with nothing playing, there is about maybe 20 dB of hiss just hanging there. It's one of the worst amps I've ever heard. I don't know about the Yamaha decoders. IME, unless it's Yamaha pro sound it's not even worth looking.
ensen.
ensen.I would like a comment on this setup:
HTPC with SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS
[url]http://www.soundblaster.com/products/Audigy2ZS_platinum_pro/[/URL] ,
multichanel preamp only for volume and balance control and DIY amps and speakers.
Thanks!
HTPC with SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS
[url]http://www.soundblaster.com/products/Audigy2ZS_platinum_pro/[/URL] ,
multichanel preamp only for volume and balance control and DIY amps and speakers.
Thanks!
Paul,
A modern cheap DVD player with inbuilt 5.1 surround decoder is a good starting point.
These have inbuilt DSP volume controlling, remote control etc.
Some players also have an Aux line inputs (audio and video), and some even have a broadcast radio tuner.
A friend recently bought a player with inbuilt Digital SM amplifiers and (little) speakers incl sub (small) cabinet for AUS$300.00.
I am not sure if this also has 5.1 line outputs.
Strathfield have regular bargains - beware some cheapies are only 2 channel audio line output.
DSE had/has a 5.1 line output player for $159.00 - this looks like a quite good machine.
Take a close look at the catalogues for the cheap stuff, and hifi stores for the dearer makes/models.
I service modern machines, and I think it fair to think of modern cheapies as being disposable when the fault is more than a dirty lens or dry caps in the power supply.
The more expensive machines cost double a cheapie just to repair.
It all comes down to a cost of ownership equation.
If you want to build your own amplifiers, gainclone based 6 channel amplifier box or active cabinets woud be a good start, reasonable powered and reasonable cost and very tweakable.
Cheapie players sound ok as original, and even exceedingly good when given minimalist treatment like fitting better electrolytic caps (power and signal) and grounding oscillator cans.
Eric.
A modern cheap DVD player with inbuilt 5.1 surround decoder is a good starting point.
These have inbuilt DSP volume controlling, remote control etc.
Some players also have an Aux line inputs (audio and video), and some even have a broadcast radio tuner.
A friend recently bought a player with inbuilt Digital SM amplifiers and (little) speakers incl sub (small) cabinet for AUS$300.00.
I am not sure if this also has 5.1 line outputs.
Strathfield have regular bargains - beware some cheapies are only 2 channel audio line output.
DSE had/has a 5.1 line output player for $159.00 - this looks like a quite good machine.
Take a close look at the catalogues for the cheap stuff, and hifi stores for the dearer makes/models.
I service modern machines, and I think it fair to think of modern cheapies as being disposable when the fault is more than a dirty lens or dry caps in the power supply.
The more expensive machines cost double a cheapie just to repair.
It all comes down to a cost of ownership equation.
If you want to build your own amplifiers, gainclone based 6 channel amplifier box or active cabinets woud be a good start, reasonable powered and reasonable cost and very tweakable.
Cheapie players sound ok as original, and even exceedingly good when given minimalist treatment like fitting better electrolytic caps (power and signal) and grounding oscillator cans.
Eric.
audigy 2 w/ gainclone
I 'm running a 6 channel gainclone connected to an Audigy 2 soundcard and in my opinion it's a much better setup than the Yamaha rx-v530rds I had before (which I sold to my parents...). I think the detailing is better as well as the surround feeling.
The only thing to think about is that you need a resistor (a couple of ohms is enough) between the ground from the cable and the starground to stop it from humming due to a ground loop (if it's also connected to the tv). That problem is not specific to gainclones however, a friend with a harman-kardon reciever has that problem so I think it has to do with a common groundplane in the computer.
To get rid of fan noise you could either place the computer a little bit away and silence it with bitumen plates or a mini-itx computer with a fanless powersupply could be built.
For the moment I run a silenced "normal" computer but a quiet mini-itx is currently being built.
I 'm running a 6 channel gainclone connected to an Audigy 2 soundcard and in my opinion it's a much better setup than the Yamaha rx-v530rds I had before (which I sold to my parents...). I think the detailing is better as well as the surround feeling.
The only thing to think about is that you need a resistor (a couple of ohms is enough) between the ground from the cable and the starground to stop it from humming due to a ground loop (if it's also connected to the tv). That problem is not specific to gainclones however, a friend with a harman-kardon reciever has that problem so I think it has to do with a common groundplane in the computer.
To get rid of fan noise you could either place the computer a little bit away and silence it with bitumen plates or a mini-itx computer with a fanless powersupply could be built.
For the moment I run a silenced "normal" computer but a quiet mini-itx is currently being built.
Get That Noisey PC Thing Out Of My Soundroom............
Maybe a PC in another room feeding an SPDIF cable but no PC's in my soundroom thanks.
I find that a PC in my soundroom (even if powered from a different wall socket) causes disturbing artifacts into my sound system.
My washing machine too - both run SMPS.
And then there is the problem of ground loops, and then there is the fan noise.....
With a very close look it may be possible to feed a SPDIF (2 channel by definition) digital feed into a standard DVD player, and from another room.
Eric.
Maybe a PC in another room feeding an SPDIF cable but no PC's in my soundroom thanks.
I find that a PC in my soundroom (even if powered from a different wall socket) causes disturbing artifacts into my sound system.
My washing machine too - both run SMPS.
And then there is the problem of ground loops, and then there is the fan noise.....
With a very close look it may be possible to feed a SPDIF (2 channel by definition) digital feed into a standard DVD player, and from another room.
Eric.
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