Any point building a TDA1541A dac?

[sharpi31]

Many moons ago I built a basic TDA1541A dac using standard OS opamp output. It was pretty good but not stunning.

More recently I've built/modded several dacs using AK4393 & CS4397 dacs (all with passive transformer output stages) and these have all been substantially better than my (poor implementation) TDA1541A dac.

I have a matched pair of TDA1541A S1 chips - is there any point trying to build a dac using these or have the newest generation dac chips surpassed the best quality achievable from the TDA1541A?

I don't want to go to a huge effort with the TDA1541A if there is no potential to beat a decent modern dac.

[marcelnl]

there actually is a point in doing that....if you like the sound of new old stock DAC....
I would have loved to build a DAc using 4 or 8 TDA 1541 cold crown chips in a non upsampling design, just because of the sound. (Got me the valab in the end, which uses 8*TDA 15343)

[abraxalito]

I'd say there's a point as you already have the DACs. For 16bit source material the TDA1541A is certainly amongst the best choices. Problems come when selecting a digital filter as the SAA7220 isn't up to the same standard as the DAC.

[pieter t]

Originally Posted by marcelnl

.... new old stock DAC....

TDA1541A is out of production, but with NOS I guess you mean "no oversampling" in stead of "new old stock"...?

[marcelnl]

new old stock is what it means, something that is out of production but still available.
The fact that TDA 1541A is also non oversampling is a nice coincidence ;-)

[pieter t]

Originally Posted by marcelnl

The fact that TDA 1541A is also non oversampling is a nice coincidence ;-)

Oversampling or non oversampling has nothing to do with dac architecture.
A dac is 16, 20, 24 or whatever bit; has current and/or voltage outputs.

[marcelnl]

Originally Posted by pieter t

TDA1541A is out of production, but with NOS I guess you mean "no oversampling" in stead of "new old stock"...?

[singa]

Originally Posted by sharpi31

Many moons ago I built a basic TDA1541A dac using standard OS opamp output. It was pretty good but not stunning.

More recently I've built/modded several dacs using AK4393 & CS4397 dacs (all with passive transformer output stages) and these have all been substantially better than my (poor implementation) TDA1541A dac.

I don't want to go to a huge effort with the TDA1541A if there is no potential to beat a decent modern dac.

Hi, You seem to want some hand holding but this is an imperfect world.
Perhaps you want others to decide for you,but I think you should
be the one that matters as you are going on this audio journey.

If your experience has been that the current 1 bit actually 5 bits dacs
are better than the R2R 16 bit ones like TDA1541A then so be it.Learning
and discovery takes effort and I think you will be shortchanged if you only
let others determine your choices about audio.Yes others can help and guide
but the major part requires your evaluation and consideration.

Hifi is controlled by big business and they determine what use use and hear.
Here is where you take back control and decide what is best for you
instead of marketing hype.Did you learn why the old dac technology(16 bit)
was changed for the "superior" 1 bit dacs? If you did then you would know
that it costs more to make the old 16bit type than the current dacs
because the old type requires more silicon than the new so for a given wafer
you can squeeze more chips than a dac like TDA1541A.

Sound quality is very subjective,different people hear differently,that has
to be recognised and understood.The seemingly better sound from the new
dacs like CS4398 is the different distortion spectrum between it and the old
16 bit type.It is researched that 1 bit dac has a spectrum in the high frequencies
so giving the perception of more resolution but is "weak" in low frequency area and
the opposite is true for 16 bit dac.So it can be seen that man's technology is not perfect
but business is about profit so what do you think will be foremost on their minds?

To be fair to the two dac technologies it must be compared like "apples
with apples" but in reality it is difficult so a compromise has to be made.
Some like the new and others the old.So the only way you are going to
"compare" is to implement each type in the best topology suitable for each.
Have you tried that and do you know what that should be? More learning is required.
In the end it is your ears that matter. Best of luck in your journey.

[abraxalito]

Originally Posted by singa

Hifi is controlled by big business and they determine what use use and hear.

Hifi is not controlled by anyone - certainly big business has a big influence - magazines seem to have the most influence - but that's changing (reducing) as online forums like this one gain traction.

Here is where you take back control and decide what is best for you
instead of marketing hype.Did you learn why the old dac technology(16 bit)
was changed for the "superior" 1 bit dacs?

Yeah its a good idea to ask for what 'superior' might mean if such a claim is being made. 'Superior sound' or 'superior measurements' for example?

If you did then you would know
that it costs more to make the old 16bit type than the current dacs
because the old type requires more silicon than the new so for a given wafer
you can squeeze more chips than a dac like TDA1541A.

Cost in semiconductors is changing all the time. TDA1541A is made with an older process technology than newer DACs so, given the larger feature size, the chip size will be bigger. Bigger chip normally means bigger cost for sure.

Sound quality is very subjective,different people hear differently,that has
to be recognised and understood.The seemingly better sound from the new
dacs like CS4398 is the different distortion spectrum between it and the old
16 bit type.It is researched that 1 bit dac has a spectrum in the high frequencies so giving the perception of more resolution but is "weak" in low frequency area and the opposite is true for 16 bit dac.

Have links for the research? In my own studies I've come to the conclusion that 1bit (bitstream) types suffer from noise modulation - this is largely invisible because nobody's agreed on a common measurement for noise modulation. I take it that 'weak bass' stems from this effect but I have no research, just hand-waving arguments I must admit

In the end it is your ears that matter. Best of luck in your journey.

Seconded.

[singa]

abraxalito said

Have links for the research? In my own studies I've come to the conclusion that 1bit (bitstream) types suffer from noise modulation - this is largely invisible because nobody's agreed on a common measurement for noise modulation. I take it that 'weak bass' stems from this effect but I have no research, just hand-waving arguments I must admit

Hi, I don't think I can locate relevant literature for you as it's been ages
when TDA1541A was hot.I do agree about the noise modulation though
and perhaps this is one reason to explain the difference between R2R
vs sigma delta dacs.

I believe even if the lastest wafer technology is used the number
of elements that need to be etched and the number of layers would
make for a costly chip,granted it may be possible to squeeze more
semiconductor elements now on a chip it would still be probable it
would take up a larger area compared to bitstream type dac.Not
only this but the precision triming and QC testing I think.