There are many informations and discuss about the sound of various digital to analogue converter units and jitter reduction methods. But I don’t find informations about the sound influence of the various decoder technologies. At bottom I listed examples of good known chipsets (except that one of first generation), where as the first three I would prefer. What are your experiences regarded different sonic quality only concerning the part before DAC?
Philips (used in a wide range of high end cd player models)
1) M4804A/SAA7210 (PCM Dec) SAA7220P/B (PCM-Decoder)/ uPD41416C (dynamic RAM/FiFo) TDA 5708, TDA5709 (RF/Servo)
2) SAA7310 (PCM Dec) SAA7323 (Servo) TDA 8708, TDA8709 (RF/Servo)
3) SAA7324 (newest PCM Decoder from NXP, inside by VAM1254/CDpro2LF)
Sanyo (found in cheap but very good sounded NAD 5325)
LA9200NM (RF/Servo) LC7863A (PCM-Dec.), LC3517-B5-15 (S-RAM)
Hitachi:/Sony (found in Linn Karik)
CXD2500Q (CXD2500AQ, CXD2500BQ, PCM Decoder + DF) HA12158NT (HA12158, RF/Servo, Hitachi/Renesas)
Mitsubishi/Philips
M27256FI (PCM Dec) SAA7220P/B (PCM-Decoder)/ uPD41416C (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
TDA 5708, TDA5709 (RF/Servo)
Mitsubishi/Sony
M51564P (Optical Pickup Servo Control, SSOP-36) M50422P (PCM-decoder, QFP-80, 80P6-B, Mitsubishi), M5M4416P-15 (dynamic RAM/FiFo) CX20109, SO-24, RF, SONY),
Matsushita/Panasonic/Technics
8802SC56.4 (MN8802(?) RF-amp MN66271RA (Servo), Technics 8389S (= AN8389S, Servo-Driver+Output Stage) RJB 1123A /CU3C (PCM Dec)
SONY
1)CX20109 (20109, SO-24, RF), CX20108 (20108, SO-30, Servo), CX23035 (QFP) MP8416-20L (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
2) CXA1081S (RF) CXA1082BS (Servo) IC103: CXD1135Q/CXD1165Q/CXD1167Q (Dec, QFP 80-pol, formerly Version: CXD1125Q (PCM Decoder, QFP) with UM6116M-2L (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
3) CXD2500Q (Dec, QFP), SM5840DP (DF, NPC), CXA1471S (HF), CXA1372Q (Servo, QFP)
4) CXD2500AQ (PCM Dec), CXD2552Q (Servo), CXD1244 (DF) KSS240 include RF-Amp
Philips (used in a wide range of high end cd player models)
1) M4804A/SAA7210 (PCM Dec) SAA7220P/B (PCM-Decoder)/ uPD41416C (dynamic RAM/FiFo) TDA 5708, TDA5709 (RF/Servo)
2) SAA7310 (PCM Dec) SAA7323 (Servo) TDA 8708, TDA8709 (RF/Servo)
3) SAA7324 (newest PCM Decoder from NXP, inside by VAM1254/CDpro2LF)
Sanyo (found in cheap but very good sounded NAD 5325)
LA9200NM (RF/Servo) LC7863A (PCM-Dec.), LC3517-B5-15 (S-RAM)
Hitachi:/Sony (found in Linn Karik)
CXD2500Q (CXD2500AQ, CXD2500BQ, PCM Decoder + DF) HA12158NT (HA12158, RF/Servo, Hitachi/Renesas)
Mitsubishi/Philips
M27256FI (PCM Dec) SAA7220P/B (PCM-Decoder)/ uPD41416C (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
TDA 5708, TDA5709 (RF/Servo)
Mitsubishi/Sony
M51564P (Optical Pickup Servo Control, SSOP-36) M50422P (PCM-decoder, QFP-80, 80P6-B, Mitsubishi), M5M4416P-15 (dynamic RAM/FiFo) CX20109, SO-24, RF, SONY),
Matsushita/Panasonic/Technics
8802SC56.4 (MN8802(?) RF-amp MN66271RA (Servo), Technics 8389S (= AN8389S, Servo-Driver+Output Stage) RJB 1123A /CU3C (PCM Dec)
SONY
1)CX20109 (20109, SO-24, RF), CX20108 (20108, SO-30, Servo), CX23035 (QFP) MP8416-20L (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
2) CXA1081S (RF) CXA1082BS (Servo) IC103: CXD1135Q/CXD1165Q/CXD1167Q (Dec, QFP 80-pol, formerly Version: CXD1125Q (PCM Decoder, QFP) with UM6116M-2L (dynamic RAM/FiFo)
3) CXD2500Q (Dec, QFP), SM5840DP (DF, NPC), CXA1471S (HF), CXA1372Q (Servo, QFP)
4) CXD2500AQ (PCM Dec), CXD2552Q (Servo), CXD1244 (DF) KSS240 include RF-Amp
You have completely ignored and forgotten the first generation philips TDA1540/TDA1541 players. Consequently, you will never reach audio nirvana...
[just joking 😉 ]
[just joking 😉 ]
both TDA 1540 and TDA 1541 are digital to analouge converter (DAC) !!! That should be not the topic.
Listening digital filter
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
Few years ago I wrote an article about listening digital filter. I have a player where you can choose different digital filter.
You can find on my web site: Listening digital filter
It's a very interesting discussion. Each digital filter has its own sonority.
I have at home during one year many DAC with various digital filters like SAA7220, Wadia or DAX with various algorithms. It's very interesting to listen to each of one.
Some "digital sound family" is often introduced by digital filter and not digital process.
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
Few years ago I wrote an article about listening digital filter. I have a player where you can choose different digital filter.
You can find on my web site: Listening digital filter
It's a very interesting discussion. Each digital filter has its own sonority.
I have at home during one year many DAC with various digital filters like SAA7220, Wadia or DAX with various algorithms. It's very interesting to listen to each of one.
Some "digital sound family" is often introduced by digital filter and not digital process.
DAC IC's are not the subject of this discussion (is my english so bad ? Please read the headline carefully).
Agree that the filter chip makes a difference. But don't forget the controller for the RAM buffer needed to eliminate the optical mechanism low-frequency jitter (there because of tracking imperfections).
Right now I am convinced of the utility of a DSP post processing. The cheap chips that do OS/digital filter don't seem to have enough processing power to do a proper interpolation, noise shaping dithering, upsampling, etc. FIR taps and bit depth are limited by the silicon proformance in the year that the filter was designed. Poor on SAA7220, better in SM5847, even better in DF1706... but always limited.
I have the Denon AL24 Processing Plus and beats clearly the other old timer SAA7220 or the other PCM DAC's without DSP processing (that I have too).
I did hear also the Anagram's ATF in a CA Azur 840C and CA DACMagic... they are better than any dedicated cip filter ever made.
Even the Harman Kardon HD990 sounds better than a "normal" player - but I didn't have enough time to listen it properly (just in demo store).
Some companies, recognizing the limits of integrated fiters, sell custom-made DSP filters as upgrades for their equipment.
DSP-based filters have also the advantage to separate the jitter domains using a bigger buffer memory. None of the integrated chips have that ability. This is maybe more important than the quality of filtering and upsampling.
PS: Of course this apply only to CD sources. On higher resolution DVD-A, the differences are diminishing to none.
PPS: Independent opinions, not identical with my findings, but conclusion is the same - dedicated DSP is the best solution.
Right now I am convinced of the utility of a DSP post processing. The cheap chips that do OS/digital filter don't seem to have enough processing power to do a proper interpolation, noise shaping dithering, upsampling, etc. FIR taps and bit depth are limited by the silicon proformance in the year that the filter was designed. Poor on SAA7220, better in SM5847, even better in DF1706... but always limited.
I have the Denon AL24 Processing Plus and beats clearly the other old timer SAA7220 or the other PCM DAC's without DSP processing (that I have too).
I did hear also the Anagram's ATF in a CA Azur 840C and CA DACMagic... they are better than any dedicated cip filter ever made.
Even the Harman Kardon HD990 sounds better than a "normal" player - but I didn't have enough time to listen it properly (just in demo store).
Some companies, recognizing the limits of integrated fiters, sell custom-made DSP filters as upgrades for their equipment.
DSP-based filters have also the advantage to separate the jitter domains using a bigger buffer memory. None of the integrated chips have that ability. This is maybe more important than the quality of filtering and upsampling.
PS: Of course this apply only to CD sources. On higher resolution DVD-A, the differences are diminishing to none.
PPS: Independent opinions, not identical with my findings, but conclusion is the same - dedicated DSP is the best solution.
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I am curious what you guys think and know of the "S.T.A.R.S." system developed by Anagram Technologies (swiss) and used as preprocessing in Audio Aero players?
The Anagram (now, Edel) technology is basically an asynchronous upsampling DSP engine. You will, no doubt, get many differing opinions regarding upsampling by way of asynchronous sample rate conversion (ASRC). While I have not heard the Anagram engine, I do have a favorable opinion of DACs I've designed and built using the AD1865 chip ASRC. The Anagram/Edel engine has better specs. than the AD1865.
AD1865 is the best ASRC cip on market.
Still is vastly over-powered by a dedicated DSP with correct software and generous ammount of buffer RAM.
Still is vastly over-powered by a dedicated DSP with correct software and generous ammount of buffer RAM.
Outperformed, yes. Vastly so, I think not. It is incorrect to compare raw compute horsepower between an application specific hardware processor and that of a generalized software compute core. You must compare outputted results for the specific task at hand. In which case, the Ad1896 performs nearly as well as a DSP based ASRC engine.
The AD1896 costs a small fraction of the Anagram/Edel solution.
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I suggest using the AD1896. It costs far less, is readily available, performs very well, and is featured in a number of DIY DAC projects in the public domain.
Should you have your heart set on creating your own DIY DAC project using the Anagram technology, it is available as a module for purchase from the linked to vendor below. Particularly interesting is the 'S2' module as I'm rather certain it features subtractive dither, although this not directly stated in the module's literature. Subtractive dither is a superior dither technology which you generally don't find utilized due to the doubling of D/A converters and other complexity which it entails.
Digital Filters | ABC PCB
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Any enterprise that would go that direction would have to become commercial to sustain the costs.
An evaluation mainboard runs in the $500-1000 range and the actual cards with different DSP in the $250-500 range (depending of licensed software embedded).
Not neccessarily. TI and AD both do relatively inexpensive DSP boards. TI has one for around $100.
this is a variant of upsampling:
Audioaero
ANAGRAM Technologies and StreamUnlimited BlueTiger? Connected Optical Drive Platform | Analog Devices
VELVET AUDIO - AUDIO AERO
Audio Aéro La Source - Technik - Burr-Brown 1792 DAC - Test fairaudio
Who have heard this version ?? Are there great sonic advantages in opposite to the AD1896?
here on diyaudio there are threads to those topic:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/112566-src4392-ad1896.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/22403-ad1896-vs-src4192.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/63309-ad1896-slavemode-how.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/91601-cs8421-upsampling-dac.htm
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...oes-upsampling-use-192khz-instead-176khz.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/152715-upsampling-24bit-192khz.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/31444-upsampler-njoe-tjoeb-theory-operation.html
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