Guys, don't get too hung up on this whole ESR thing. This is just theory. What matters is how your cap actually sounds in this particular application. I couldn't care less if the regulator is struggling as long as the sound is good.
I was intending to test some Elnas and Rubycons in my Shiga, but after I managed to obtain Black Gates I completely lost my motivation. I tested Panasonics FC and they were worse than BG by a considerable margin (muddy, uninteresting, poor detail).
On a side note: I recently paid £25 for a single BG N cap, only to replace a different value BG N (!) in my Shiga - and I consider it money well spent. Shigaclone with the right components is simply sublime and well worth the investment. To put things into perspective, think for a second how much you would pay for a commercial hi-end transport. And "fully cloned" Shigaclone certainly IS hi-end. Comes with a remote too
Edit: I suppose I could buy and test a few C916 caps like Elna, Rubycon etc. They are cheap, so I would do it "pro publico bono". But buying a bunch of PS-sized audio grade caps would be too expensive - and I know it for a fact, they will all be worse than the Black Gates.
I was intending to test some Elnas and Rubycons in my Shiga, but after I managed to obtain Black Gates I completely lost my motivation. I tested Panasonics FC and they were worse than BG by a considerable margin (muddy, uninteresting, poor detail).
On a side note: I recently paid £25 for a single BG N cap, only to replace a different value BG N (!) in my Shiga - and I consider it money well spent. Shigaclone with the right components is simply sublime and well worth the investment. To put things into perspective, think for a second how much you would pay for a commercial hi-end transport. And "fully cloned" Shigaclone certainly IS hi-end. Comes with a remote too
Edit: I suppose I could buy and test a few C916 caps like Elna, Rubycon etc. They are cheap, so I would do it "pro publico bono". But buying a bunch of PS-sized audio grade caps would be too expensive - and I know it for a fact, they will all be worse than the Black Gates.
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John, if you can still find some Nichicon FX, try them, as they seem to be actually better than BGs in my TL0: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...ansport-shigaclone-story-210.html#post2437881
End yes, I wouldn't care less about that whole ESR thing.
End yes, I wouldn't care less about that whole ESR thing.
Now, did anybody tried the original electrolytics from a boombox in regulator circuit?
They seem fine for C906 and everywhere else, so why not in a regulator? I just assumed that BGs should be better, but never really bothered to compare them with originals
You can probably find 1000uF values in other sections of boombox.
They seem fine for C906 and everywhere else, so why not in a regulator? I just assumed that BGs should be better, but never really bothered to compare them with originals
You can probably find 1000uF values in other sections of boombox.
Some of us do not have money to burn on exensive capacitors alas, expecially caps where the technology is at least 10+ years old (in the case of Black Gate 'N') & need constant power applied to sound their best (not great for the environment). ZLHs are meant to be better and more up to date... I'm sure if Black Gate really were 'the best' (as opposed to the most expensive) Rubycon would still be making them, and getting rich in the process...
As for the regulator, I'd rather have it working as designed - in my opinion it ultimately tends to sound better that way rather than shooting in the dark with boutique parts (been there, done that in the past).
I rather like FCs - sound more fluid to me than Black Gates, still each to his/her own which is the beauty of DIY
I'd just like to know if the ZL I am using after the regulator is actually suitable for the tast or if I should replace it with something else?
- J
As for the regulator, I'd rather have it working as designed - in my opinion it ultimately tends to sound better that way rather than shooting in the dark with boutique parts (been there, done that in the past).
I rather like FCs - sound more fluid to me than Black Gates, still each to his/her own which is the beauty of DIY
I'd just like to know if the ZL I am using after the regulator is actually suitable for the tast or if I should replace it with something else?
- J
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Now, did anybody tried the original electrolytics from a boombox in regulator circuit?
They seem fine for C906 and everywhere else, so why not in a regulator? I just assumed that BGs should be better, but never really bothered to compare them with originals
You can probably find 1000uF values in other sections of boombox.
I still think in some respects my original Shiga with all stock components still had 'something' that the rebuild didn't have. A fluidity to the sound which was 100% addictive, like good analogue. So perhaps you are correct about the regulator circuit there.
Luckily I still have mine and I guess it would be easy to fit it into the Shiga enclosure (which you built) to find out
I'll see...
Interesting to observe that 47-labs didn't use exotic parts in their CD transports either, and I trust their ears
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I did. They are awful
@johnm - ironically, Rubycon stopped producing Black Gates for financial reasons
They decided that they can make more money if they utilise BG production lines for ordinary capacitors, because they can produce them in much higher volumes.FCs aren't bad caps, and in some applications, like Gainclone, they are actually one of the best choices (although still second to BG N). But in the Shiga, there is no comparison, they are clearly worse.
47 Labs simply used caps which sounded best in their particular devices - which is exactly what we are trying to do here
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I did. They are awful
Ironically near the beginning of the Shigaclone thread many said the same thing once they had their Black Gates installed (including myself I have to say). Slowly many realised they'd lost something with the mods and gradually changed back to the original 'el cheapo' caps, with the exception of C916 where most did prefer a Black Gate N or other quality PSU cap.
My experiences with Black Gate caps are mixed, I have to say. Initially I loved them, but over time often found them to be a little 'gritty' sounding. These days I'd gladly trade some of the Black Gates detail/insight for a more fluid overall sound, using a "lesser" cap.
I'm very interested in the current Nichicon line, having been very surprised at how good Nichicon FZ was in the signal path of another project. I also like military spec. metal-encased solid Tantalum (yes! The dreaded tantalum haha!) in signal path areas too. I have yet to try two military spec. tants back-to-back (to create a non-polar cap) but I suspect this may well be something special...
It's all good fun innit
From what I've heard directly from Japanese distributor, the owner was in really bad health and apparently nobody took over him.
Black Gate (capacitor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You must be referring to the guys who replaced ALL the capacitors on the CD board with "audio" caps. This is definitely a bad move, and like you said, results in the "magic" being lost. But the power supply caps are a different story - these should definitely be replaced, and with the highest quality parts you can afford.
A lot depends on the device... I don't claim that Black Gates are a magical cure for all ailments. Indeed, different models (STD, N, FK, etc.) have significantly different sonic signatures. Some can introduce colourations; STD, can be a bit "edgy", and N can sometimes be a bit too laid-back. But still, if you choose the right ones, it is really hard to improve upon them, especially in power supply applications.
I can't remember where I read the "financial" explanation... But it sounded believable. I mean, it is always about money, isn't it?
Besides, our stories aren't conflicting, maybe one led to another I could never understand why nobody took over the production after Rubycon had stopped making them... Whoever would restart the production, would have guaranteed good sales! But the poor health of the Jelmax owner would explain it...
Hi! The way I'm setup here, any tidbit change I do will have an impact on the sound, it's pretty revealing so there is not much place for error. I can only do one tweak at a time. My Loudspeakers are also efficient and the rest are minimalist concepts, I like to Keep it simple all the way. It could be the difference between my setup and yours. I have tried SilmicII at lots of places, rarely haven't they fit my taste (does C906 ring you a bell). Again, it all depends on your setup. As for Panasonic FC, I have about 70 brand new ones (broked-in) here picking up dust, they never perform well but that's my own experience. They are always grainy and not by a small margin.
If you don't want to experiment and want to cut corners, then, chances are you'll probably be unlucky. Your last sentence doesn't make sense, you are the only one who knows. I could suggest Mundorf M-Lytics 2200uF 63VDC before 7808 but again you are now probably biased not to proceed since I like Silmic's and dislike FC's. What if someone else rather than me would have suggested you the Mundorf as "this is the one", you'd probably be very temted huh?
It shows everyone has different taste (and ears!) - I really do not like Silmics (I or II), and much preferred Cerafines to be honest. However I am now very impressed by Nichicon's KZ series - 98% of the detail of the Black Gates, without the grain, and a more fluid sound. Nice firm bass too. Open, crisp & clear treble.
By my last sentence, I meant that I'd like to find a high quality cap that is electrically suited for the purpose of being placed directly after a regulator (LM7808) i.e. NOT ultra low ESR. However both Peter and Uncle_leon have both said it doesn't actually matter in practice, so I think I'll just leave my Rubycon ZL (or ZLH I cannot remember!) in there and relax. It does sound fantastic afterall
- John
so I think I'll just leave my Rubycon ZL (or ZLH I cannot remember!) in there and relax. It does sound fantastic afterall
- John
Et voilà!
Yes, a brand new ez31 from excellent photo (Amazon.com)
Now that I have the correct boombox, I'll start ordering the parts.
My questions about Black Gate caps. Now that its so long since these were produced would anyone still recommend buying them? They've either sat on a shelf for 10 years, or are a chinese fake right?
Thanks
Paul
Now that I have the correct boombox, I'll start ordering the parts.
My questions about Black Gate caps. Now that its so long since these were produced would anyone still recommend buying them? They've either sat on a shelf for 10 years, or are a chinese fake right?
Thanks
Paul
You can still get the genuine article from both Michael Percy and the Parts Connexion. Some values may no longer be available. I believe that production ceased a little more recently than 10yrs ago, but could be mistaken. In any event I still use these and keep a small stock on hand for my own projects. In specific applications they still sound better to me than anything else I have tried. (Muse, Silmic II, Nichicon and Panasonics of various types.)
Black Gates have significantly longer life than normal caps, so even after 10 years they should still be good.
FK 2200/35 can be obtained from Percy.
I have used this eBay seller: hanshare-electronics before and he has genuine stuff, if terribly expensive. You can get STD 1000/50 and N 47/50 from him and you're sorted for caps.
FK 2200/35 can be obtained from Percy.
I have used this eBay seller: hanshare-electronics before and he has genuine stuff, if terribly expensive. You can get STD 1000/50 and N 47/50 from him and you're sorted for caps.
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After reading several hundred of these posts, I have'nt seen this question, so I guess I'm the dumbest one here.
I removed most of the circuit boards which were connected with ribbon cables. They had a "male" and a "female'' end.
However, the ribbon cable going from the small circuit board to the "main" circuit board, and the ribbon cable going from the "main" circuit board to the display circuit board don't appear to be removable without wrecking either the cable, or the connector.
How does one remove the ribbon cable in this case?
Thanks,
Paul
I removed most of the circuit boards which were connected with ribbon cables. They had a "male" and a "female'' end.
However, the ribbon cable going from the small circuit board to the "main" circuit board, and the ribbon cable going from the "main" circuit board to the display circuit board don't appear to be removable without wrecking either the cable, or the connector.
How does one remove the ribbon cable in this case?
Thanks,
Paul
You are probably best off leaving the LCD ribbon as it is (unless you insist on replacing it with your own cables, in which case you should be able to pull it out with some effort).
The connector between the CD board and the main boombox board can be simply pulled out of its socket. Wiggle it around a bit and it should come off. Unless you mean the ribbon between the CD board and the laser assembly, which should definitely be left alone.
The connector between the CD board and the main boombox board can be simply pulled out of its socket. Wiggle it around a bit and it should come off. Unless you mean the ribbon between the CD board and the laser assembly, which should definitely be left alone.
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