I have a small S5 electronics 8 watt tube amp.
Ages ago I upgraded the volume pot and the inputs. Just recently I put it in a nicer wood case.
Anyhow, when I first changed pots and inputs I used solid wire, because it was all I had onhand. When I changed cases the other day, I also changed all the solid wire (only used on inputs and volume pot) to the same guage stranded wire. Also the same make, both Radio Shack wire, as am a bit broke at times.
There seems to be a very noticeable upgrade in how it sounds, the only things changed was the wire types.
------
My question is: would the change from solid to stranded wire to the inputs and volume pot make a noticeable difference in how it sounds ?
thanks
Ages ago I upgraded the volume pot and the inputs. Just recently I put it in a nicer wood case.
Anyhow, when I first changed pots and inputs I used solid wire, because it was all I had onhand. When I changed cases the other day, I also changed all the solid wire (only used on inputs and volume pot) to the same guage stranded wire. Also the same make, both Radio Shack wire, as am a bit broke at times.
There seems to be a very noticeable upgrade in how it sounds, the only things changed was the wire types.
------
My question is: would the change from solid to stranded wire to the inputs and volume pot make a noticeable difference in how it sounds ?
thanks
Without measurements, it's hard to tell what's going on. But here are my guesses:
1) Perhaps you cleaned up a poor connection or cold solder joint somewhere.
2) The routing changed such that signal forward and signal return conductors became more tightly coupled, hence, less prone to EMI and/or inductive pick-up.
3) You changed something, thus, it must have a positive effect. This is commonly known as a placebo effect.
4) Your ears got a much needed break while you changed the wire. Hence, it now sounds better.
If the routing is EXACTLY the same and the wire material and cross-sectional area (AWG) is the same there is no scientific reason why it would sound any different. Some may argue that skin effect will give the stranded wire an advantage. But that only applies if the strands are isolated from one another. That's not the case in regular stranded wire. Besides, the skin depth at audio frequencies exceeds the wire diameter - unless you're using some ridiculously large wire.
If you had measurements that showed an improvement, I'd probably go with options 1 or 2 above. But without, 3 and 4 are just as likely in my opinion.
~Tom
1) Perhaps you cleaned up a poor connection or cold solder joint somewhere.
2) The routing changed such that signal forward and signal return conductors became more tightly coupled, hence, less prone to EMI and/or inductive pick-up.
3) You changed something, thus, it must have a positive effect. This is commonly known as a placebo effect.
4) Your ears got a much needed break while you changed the wire. Hence, it now sounds better.
If the routing is EXACTLY the same and the wire material and cross-sectional area (AWG) is the same there is no scientific reason why it would sound any different. Some may argue that skin effect will give the stranded wire an advantage. But that only applies if the strands are isolated from one another. That's not the case in regular stranded wire. Besides, the skin depth at audio frequencies exceeds the wire diameter - unless you're using some ridiculously large wire.
If you had measurements that showed an improvement, I'd probably go with options 1 or 2 above. But without, 3 and 4 are just as likely in my opinion.
~Tom
quote:
If the routing is EXACTLY the same and the wire material and cross-sectional area (AWG) is the same there is no scientific reason why it would sound any different.
I will have to agree 100%. My personal experience has also shown that I could tell no differences between solid and stranded wire.
If the routing is EXACTLY the same and the wire material and cross-sectional area (AWG) is the same there is no scientific reason why it would sound any different.
I will have to agree 100%. My personal experience has also shown that I could tell no differences between solid and stranded wire.
Thanks for the replies.
Soonerorlater, it was in a Hammond 12" x 8" black metal case, with matching wire cage on top. It's now in a 12" x 8" wood box, with wood cover (run with cover open), but with the PC board moved from along the front of the case to along one of the sides (PC rotated 90 degrees).
Other folk, sorry hadn't taken measurements.
The pot and wire routing was switched from near one end of the PC to the other, wire length is exactly the same. Also was able to move the 3 transformers further away from the PC board.
*****
I'd read somewhere about solid and stranded, how one was better for AC or something, and another better for preamps, but couldn't remember what. Anyhow, based on that, I was fishing for any commonly agreed upon differences in using the two wire types for various applications.
I'd thought it might've been cleaning up connections or rerouting or even subjective listening change, but thought I'd check out the wire difference, if any, to rule that out.
Your answers, even varying, cleared that up for me - I mean there was no definite "we all agree that the types do some things better than the other, we use different types for different jobs" or similar.
So I'd say it's mainly that I'd cleaned up the connections, or the rerouting, or both.
There does seem a definite difference-could be my ears, could be placebo, but I'd lean towards cleaner connections over subjective as my guess.
Anyway thanks, helped a lot, and any additional replies much welcome too.
Soonerorlater, it was in a Hammond 12" x 8" black metal case, with matching wire cage on top. It's now in a 12" x 8" wood box, with wood cover (run with cover open), but with the PC board moved from along the front of the case to along one of the sides (PC rotated 90 degrees).
Other folk, sorry hadn't taken measurements.
The pot and wire routing was switched from near one end of the PC to the other, wire length is exactly the same. Also was able to move the 3 transformers further away from the PC board.
*****
I'd read somewhere about solid and stranded, how one was better for AC or something, and another better for preamps, but couldn't remember what. Anyhow, based on that, I was fishing for any commonly agreed upon differences in using the two wire types for various applications.
I'd thought it might've been cleaning up connections or rerouting or even subjective listening change, but thought I'd check out the wire difference, if any, to rule that out.
Your answers, even varying, cleared that up for me - I mean there was no definite "we all agree that the types do some things better than the other, we use different types for different jobs" or similar.
So I'd say it's mainly that I'd cleaned up the connections, or the rerouting, or both.
There does seem a definite difference-could be my ears, could be placebo, but I'd lean towards cleaner connections over subjective as my guess.
Anyway thanks, helped a lot, and any additional replies much welcome too.
So in reality you changed a bunch of stuff and wonder what happened...
Moving the transformers away from the board is quite likely to have had an effect. Even low-level hum induced by power transformers can mix with the input signal and form intermodulation products. It's pretty easy to measure with a spectrum analyzer (or sound card) and can result in a bit fuzzy/hazy (for lack of a better term) sound.
~Tom
Technically, yup.
The thing I read about wire came to mind, I couldn't remember if it made an obvious difference or not, so thought I'd check out and rule that out or not first. Plus it was the only thing I'd swapped rather than repositioned. But yup actually a bunch of stuff.
Don't have an analyzer anymore but thanks that and the soundcard idea good to know.
The thing I read about wire came to mind, I couldn't remember if it made an obvious difference or not, so thought I'd check out and rule that out or not first. Plus it was the only thing I'd swapped rather than repositioned. But yup actually a bunch of stuff.
Don't have an analyzer anymore but thanks that and the soundcard idea good to know.
Actually there is a difference.
Electricity travels around the outside of the wire, not inside. A stranded wire has much more surface area then a solid core wire.
This is why stranded wire is preferred in high demand situations, a side benefit is that it also makes it more flexible.
So the OP likely did hear a difference, although it's subjective as to which sounds better.
Electricity travels around the outside of the wire, not inside. A stranded wire has much more surface area then a solid core wire.
This is why stranded wire is preferred in high demand situations, a side benefit is that it also makes it more flexible.
So the OP likely did hear a difference, although it's subjective as to which sounds better.
No, not really. No-one has ever demonstrated a sonic difference that couldn't be measured. "Demonstrated" is a different term than "claimed."
In any event, solid wire is superior for heater wiring, since it can be twisted tightly and run in chassis corners, reducing hum. There are probably other examples of stranded vs. solid where there are differences due to the mechanics, and one is preferred over the other. The wire surface area thing is unimpressive- measure impedance of a foot of stranded versus solid at the highest audible frequency, then look at the scaling with load.
In any event, solid wire is superior for heater wiring, since it can be twisted tightly and run in chassis corners, reducing hum. There are probably other examples of stranded vs. solid where there are differences due to the mechanics, and one is preferred over the other. The wire surface area thing is unimpressive- measure impedance of a foot of stranded versus solid at the highest audible frequency, then look at the scaling with load.
I could easily accept tomchr, mach1 and others opinions about changing many variables, come to think of it; also that it may be simply subjective, or different listening sessions.
But anyhow...
Globug's sounded like some of what I'd read tho' hard to remember. Seem to remember something about solid using only the outside of the wire when used with certain things (better for AC or power? can't remember). Maybe like what SY said too.
The measure thing, I tend to believe that everything is potentially measurable, but we haven't discovered how, and may or may not for many things. But keep that to myself and accept present level of where we're at, what's science and what's fiction.
In any case guess I'm primarily curious about wire type info, but all other input is helping equally. Can easily accept any misconceptions on my part, keep 'em coming.
But anyhow...
Globug's sounded like some of what I'd read tho' hard to remember. Seem to remember something about solid using only the outside of the wire when used with certain things (better for AC or power? can't remember). Maybe like what SY said too.
The measure thing, I tend to believe that everything is potentially measurable, but we haven't discovered how, and may or may not for many things. But keep that to myself and accept present level of where we're at, what's science and what's fiction.
In any case guess I'm primarily curious about wire type info, but all other input is helping equally. Can easily accept any misconceptions on my part, keep 'em coming.
Measuring a chunk with an ohm meter won't show you much. Current has a big effect on it, which is why it is used in high amperage circuits., especially DC. So there is a proven difference that may or may not be audible to you.
Find a piece of solid core wire that is corroded or oxidized on the outside, you can measure and see it's severe impedance or complete lack of conductivity. This is why we now use oxygen free stranded wire for speakers now.
Some people prefer solid core speaker wire, so it's completely subjective.
Think of all the audio capacitors with all the different materials etc. 10 different materials or topologies will likely garner 10 different opinions from audio enthusiast, though they are are the "same" part to an engineer.
So for most practical electronic circuits, they can be subbed for each other, however were talking vintage audio, lot's of grey areas, ear vs. meter type arguments.
I like solid wire cause it is easier and to route and work with inside an amp.
Hello All,
Sy +1 on the solid wire for heaters.
Take a pair of solid conductors with different color insulation chuck, up one end in a bench vice and the other end in a drill motor twist it left or twist it right whatever you like. It ends up straight and pretty like a machine did it. It can be placed in the chassis neat and clean.
I think that the left hand twist works out better with the electron spin, it sounds so much better.
DT
Sy +1 on the solid wire for heaters.
Take a pair of solid conductors with different color insulation chuck, up one end in a bench vice and the other end in a drill motor twist it left or twist it right whatever you like. It ends up straight and pretty like a machine did it. It can be placed in the chassis neat and clean.
I think that the left hand twist works out better with the electron spin, it sounds so much better.
DT
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.