My point...
is that it may be a mistake to think of the Ncore as "perfect" and all other amps as "colored". Again and again this is what we keep coming back to. Many people here supporting the point of view that if one prefers another amp to Ncore, the preference is because of a flaw (coloration) of the other amp. There is no proof of this, and to suggest that the Ncore is in essence "perfect" (and you are assuming it to be perfect if you think all other amps are colored in comparison).
I do not deny the possibility that some may prefer other amps due to a coloration those amps have which is not present in the Ncore, but this is not the only possibility.
It is just as possible that the Ncore does have a flaw in comparison to some other amps, denying this possibility is just placing one's head in sand, or putting one's fingers in one's ears.
A more interesting discussion could be had, if we accept that there may be a problem with the Ncore, and then progress to considering what that problem may be, and how it might be improved.
is that it may be a mistake to think of the Ncore as "perfect" and all other amps as "colored". Again and again this is what we keep coming back to. Many people here supporting the point of view that if one prefers another amp to Ncore, the preference is because of a flaw (coloration) of the other amp. There is no proof of this, and to suggest that the Ncore is in essence "perfect" (and you are assuming it to be perfect if you think all other amps are colored in comparison).
I do not deny the possibility that some may prefer other amps due to a coloration those amps have which is not present in the Ncore, but this is not the only possibility.
It is just as possible that the Ncore does have a flaw in comparison to some other amps, denying this possibility is just placing one's head in sand, or putting one's fingers in one's ears.
A more interesting discussion could be had, if we accept that there may be a problem with the Ncore, and then progress to considering what that problem may be, and how it might be improved.
An amplifier cannot really be judged by itself. It is part of a system with the loudspeaker (and the connecting cable). There is no "perfect" amp.
dave
It is also possible that Bigfoot exists.
Until it is shown that there really is a problem it is somewhat of an academic discussion.
I have to agree with Julf here and am not going to repeat my post from a few pages back, but the published frequency response curve of the nCore says quite a lot.
The 'flaw' is that the sound is not coloured by variations in gain of audible frequencies, and if you have never heard an amp without these variations before then sure something is going to seem to be missing. A perfect amp doesn't have to mean the best sounding (as that is entirely subjective), it just means that it doesn't do anything to the signal other than increase the amplitude. My ears suggest that this is the case, and my eyes reading the documentation on the nCores back that up.
Class D was always going to be a different ballgame, and was only a matter of time before someone like Bruno was clever enough to get it right. Why is this generating such an emotional response?
The 'flaw' is that the sound is not coloured by variations in gain of audible frequencies, and if you have never heard an amp without these variations before then sure something is going to seem to be missing. A perfect amp doesn't have to mean the best sounding (as that is entirely subjective), it just means that it doesn't do anything to the signal other than increase the amplitude. My ears suggest that this is the case, and my eyes reading the documentation on the nCores back that up.
Class D was always going to be a different ballgame, and was only a matter of time before someone like Bruno was clever enough to get it right. Why is this generating such an emotional response?
Yes...
I agree, it is an academic discussion, as this entire discussion is...
But, there are a lot of people preferring other amplifiers to Ncore, and many of people are citing similar sonic shortcomings. While this evidence is anecdotal, that is no reason to dismiss it entirely (putting head in sand).
There are a lot of interesting tests which could be done to learn things about the sound of the Ncore amp:
One example, measure the frequency and amplitude of the high frequency switching residual of the Ncore amplifer. Then add this component to the output of a conventional, high quality, class A/B amplifier and do listening tests in the same sytem of Ncore vs. the Class A/B amp plus the switching residual simulation... such a test might tell us something.
I agree, it is an academic discussion, as this entire discussion is...
But, there are a lot of people preferring other amplifiers to Ncore, and many of people are citing similar sonic shortcomings. While this evidence is anecdotal, that is no reason to dismiss it entirely (putting head in sand).
There are a lot of interesting tests which could be done to learn things about the sound of the Ncore amp:
One example, measure the frequency and amplitude of the high frequency switching residual of the Ncore amplifer. Then add this component to the output of a conventional, high quality, class A/B amplifier and do listening tests in the same sytem of Ncore vs. the Class A/B amp plus the switching residual simulation... such a test might tell us something.
We aren't dismissing it entirely and no head has touched sand as far as I can see. This discussion is like buying a motorbike and complaining that it doesn't have a steering wheel.
It's fine to like harmonic distortion. It's fine to find a reference quality amp to be 'flat' but that doesn't mean theres something wrong with it.
I am not an electronics engineer and may have got this completely wrong, but wasn't the whole point of this that Bruno was able to mathematically model the switching noise and therefore design it out of the output signal?
It's fine to like harmonic distortion. It's fine to find a reference quality amp to be 'flat' but that doesn't mean theres something wrong with it.
I am not an electronics engineer and may have got this completely wrong, but wasn't the whole point of this that Bruno was able to mathematically model the switching noise and therefore design it out of the output signal?
See
Thommy, respectfully, this is what I mean:
"It's fine to like harmonic distortion. It's fine to find a reference quality amp to be 'flat' but that doesn't mean theres something wrong with it."
Your statement appears to suggest that people are preferring other amplifiers because they have more distortion. If that is the case, then I would agree that they are preferring a euphonic coloration. But that may not be the case. Many, many class A and A/B amplifiers feature distortion profiles well below the accepted level of audibility: so the listeners are not preferring these amps because of additional distortion vs Ncore, it is something else.
If we accept that the goal of an audio system is to be neutral and transparent in the reproduction of music, then the ultimate output in the room needs to be evaluated on how much it sounds like music (it would be helpful here to reference recordings one is intimately familiar with, preferrably which one made oneself, luckily, these days it is quite accessible for one to make a very good simple mono recording of single instruments for test purposes): music has natural body, and does not sound flat (at least decently played instruments do). I would submit that an amplifier which sounds flat in the reproduction of music which is not flat has a flaw (or at least there is a flaw somewhere in the system).
Thommy, respectfully, this is what I mean:
"It's fine to like harmonic distortion. It's fine to find a reference quality amp to be 'flat' but that doesn't mean theres something wrong with it."
Your statement appears to suggest that people are preferring other amplifiers because they have more distortion. If that is the case, then I would agree that they are preferring a euphonic coloration. But that may not be the case. Many, many class A and A/B amplifiers feature distortion profiles well below the accepted level of audibility: so the listeners are not preferring these amps because of additional distortion vs Ncore, it is something else.
If we accept that the goal of an audio system is to be neutral and transparent in the reproduction of music, then the ultimate output in the room needs to be evaluated on how much it sounds like music (it would be helpful here to reference recordings one is intimately familiar with, preferrably which one made oneself, luckily, these days it is quite accessible for one to make a very good simple mono recording of single instruments for test purposes): music has natural body, and does not sound flat (at least decently played instruments do). I would submit that an amplifier which sounds flat in the reproduction of music which is not flat has a flaw (or at least there is a flaw somewhere in the system).
Is this accepted level of audibility from the same stable as the idea that any frequency content above 20kHz is completely lost to humans?
The nCore is a flat amp. The graph shows that. THD is measured in miniscule figures, orders of magnitude lower than any other I have seen.
"accepted level of audibility" is again entirely subjective, accepted by whom?
I have worked in studios for years, primarily with ATC and PMC active monitoring systems. They are as close to 'flat' as the designers could get at the time and they don't sound great for home listening. Too revealing and to 'cold' sounding for hifi lovers is generally the feedback we get from clients, but nonetheless they are great for doing 'forensic' audio work, as proven by the results we get.
If we were to master an album on equipment that has a colouration, then the inverse of this colouration would be present in the finished product. If you were to then listen to that album on an nCore that 'flaw' would still be present, but if you listened to it on an amp with similar colouration as the one used in the mastering process then the 'flaw' would not be present.
Is this what you are getting at?
The nCore is a flat amp. The graph shows that. THD is measured in miniscule figures, orders of magnitude lower than any other I have seen.
"accepted level of audibility" is again entirely subjective, accepted by whom?
I have worked in studios for years, primarily with ATC and PMC active monitoring systems. They are as close to 'flat' as the designers could get at the time and they don't sound great for home listening. Too revealing and to 'cold' sounding for hifi lovers is generally the feedback we get from clients, but nonetheless they are great for doing 'forensic' audio work, as proven by the results we get.
If we were to master an album on equipment that has a colouration, then the inverse of this colouration would be present in the finished product. If you were to then listen to that album on an nCore that 'flaw' would still be present, but if you listened to it on an amp with similar colouration as the one used in the mastering process then the 'flaw' would not be present.
Is this what you are getting at?
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And yes I am suggesting that people prefer other amps because of the inherent colouration they bring to the output.
To clarify things, I have a valve amp too and use this for the occasions where the nCore is just too flat i.e. on very old recordings pre 1980 that haven't been recently remastered. I use it because I like the distortion, but I don't think the nCores are flawed because they don't offer the same level of distortion.
An amplifier increases amplitude. Generally due to design amplifiers also do other things to the signal besides increasing amplitude. The nCore appears to increase the amplitude without side effects. In terms of what an amplifier is meant to be this seems, to me at least, to mean perfection in the objective sense.
Whether this matches our personal idea of perfection or not is not relevant as this is utterly subjective and is the reason I have two distinctly different amps at home.
To clarify things, I have a valve amp too and use this for the occasions where the nCore is just too flat i.e. on very old recordings pre 1980 that haven't been recently remastered. I use it because I like the distortion, but I don't think the nCores are flawed because they don't offer the same level of distortion.
An amplifier increases amplitude. Generally due to design amplifiers also do other things to the signal besides increasing amplitude. The nCore appears to increase the amplitude without side effects. In terms of what an amplifier is meant to be this seems, to me at least, to mean perfection in the objective sense.
Whether this matches our personal idea of perfection or not is not relevant as this is utterly subjective and is the reason I have two distinctly different amps at home.
No...
That is precisely not what I am getting at. I do not think we need to talk at all about flat frequency response (of amplifiers, in room response is another story).
My point is that common amplifier measurements do not tell the entire story about how an amplifier sounds, as these responses do not test time domain responses when the amplifier is subject to complex mixed signals. Even a simple test of squarewaves at many different frequencies (not mixed) might reveal something...
Most well designed audio amplifiers measure essentially the same: that is, they have distortion and noise levels below the theshold of audibility. Now, certainly damping factor and output impedance (especially when we take into account speaker load differences) are areas where amps differ, but I suspect time domain performance is where most of the real differences in sound lie if we are considering contemporary, well engineered, class A and A/B SS designs (I am not considering high distortion profile, high output impedance old school tube amps here).
I would like to see some investigation of these factors, as well as some testing to see if the switching residual (which conventional amps do not have) is actually affecting the performance in the audible bandwidth (of the loudspeaker output).
Instead of considering these factors, and the possibility that there may be sonic contributions (coloration) from them, most here seem to want to consider the Ncore virtually perfect and leave it at that.
Of course, I have not yet mentioned the possibility of the high levels of loop feedback being a potential problem as well.
That is precisely not what I am getting at. I do not think we need to talk at all about flat frequency response (of amplifiers, in room response is another story).
My point is that common amplifier measurements do not tell the entire story about how an amplifier sounds, as these responses do not test time domain responses when the amplifier is subject to complex mixed signals. Even a simple test of squarewaves at many different frequencies (not mixed) might reveal something...
Most well designed audio amplifiers measure essentially the same: that is, they have distortion and noise levels below the theshold of audibility. Now, certainly damping factor and output impedance (especially when we take into account speaker load differences) are areas where amps differ, but I suspect time domain performance is where most of the real differences in sound lie if we are considering contemporary, well engineered, class A and A/B SS designs (I am not considering high distortion profile, high output impedance old school tube amps here).
I would like to see some investigation of these factors, as well as some testing to see if the switching residual (which conventional amps do not have) is actually affecting the performance in the audible bandwidth (of the loudspeaker output).
Instead of considering these factors, and the possibility that there may be sonic contributions (coloration) from them, most here seem to want to consider the Ncore virtually perfect and leave it at that.
Of course, I have not yet mentioned the possibility of the high levels of loop feedback being a potential problem as well.
Right, understood. Not what others have been getting at.
Complex signals (i.e. all recorded music) are a completely different area to measure, you are right. I would also be interested to see the results of an objective comparison between the nCore and a similarly regarded class A or A/B design.
However you have already stated earlier in the thread that we are unable to measure this stuff so what we have here is something like:
"You can't tell me that the invisible unicorn doesn't exist, because you can't see that it doesn't."
No?
Complex signals (i.e. all recorded music) are a completely different area to measure, you are right. I would also be interested to see the results of an objective comparison between the nCore and a similarly regarded class A or A/B design.
However you have already stated earlier in the thread that we are unable to measure this stuff so what we have here is something like:
"You can't tell me that the invisible unicorn doesn't exist, because you can't see that it doesn't."
No?
As I have said before - we look froward to the test results. But I am not going to spend much effort chasing invisible unicorns (as thommy put it) before I have some evidence that they might actually exist.
"Some people don't like the sound of ncores" is inly evidence of one thing - that some people don't like the sound of ncores. Some people don't like the taste of liquorice. Does that mean there is something wrong with liquorice?
If you don't like the idea of high levels of loop feedback, the ncore definitely isn't for you.
Off-topic, but Bruel & Kjær studies on frequency response tells us that a flat response isn't necessarliy neutral and correct in tonality.
Attachments
Indeed, that curve is pretty well-known (and mostly acknowledged to be correct). The problem is the issue of where the roll off happens. What you want is the smooth roll-off applied to the end result of the whole chain (including the room), so the amp is probably not the best place to accomplish it. An extra challenge is the fact that some recording engineers already apply that curve at the mastering stage...
Guess what we need is tone controls
I wasn't indicating using an amp to get roll-off. That would be impossible to get right IMO. Active system with EQ possibility rules.
I personally use miniDSP at the moment, but will have DLCP from Hypex ready in a few weeks. Combined with Ncore it will be up to the speakers, room and recordings to give me the warm, fuzzy and airy musicality.
I personally use miniDSP at the moment, but will have DLCP from Hypex ready in a few weeks. Combined with Ncore it will be up to the speakers, room and recordings to give me the warm, fuzzy and airy musicality.
The soft, smooth B&K slope doesn't require very sophisticated EQ - good old tone controls are actually pretty good for that.
it will be up to the speakers, room and recordings to give me the warm, fuzzy and airy musicality.
I totally agree with that approach
All this is kind of academic really, amplifier increases amplitude. Most amps do other stuff too, it seems that the Hypex doesn't therefore it's perfect in terms of what an amplifier should be. All those other adjustments people think may be required to get the sound that they are looking for should be made by the user at other points in the chain. Hypex give them the chance to do that, other amps make assumptions about what people want and remove that option to a certain extent. Therefore other amps could be considered to be less than perfect in comparison.
That graph above is for measuring dB with a C weighting, A & B also exist and we (as in the people i work with) usually use A for measurements concerning music. There are too many factors at play here, and quoting stuff like this doesn't prove anything.
That graph above is for measuring dB with a C weighting, A & B also exist and we (as in the people i work with) usually use A for measurements concerning music. There are too many factors at play here, and quoting stuff like this doesn't prove anything.
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where is the information from that Bruno uses a current source amp in his LS1?
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