Ian ,
last summer I made some "research" about high quality PA amps.
The ones I found most interesting was from this German Manufacturer. POWERSOFT DIGAM.
They seems to have a good reputation for very good quality of sound and of reliability as well. Expensive as a new item but maybe a used one? The K-10 is capable of 2x4000W (which ones?) into 4 ohms or 6000 W into 2 ohms and weighs
12 kg. Bridge them for 12000W into 4 ohms. Nice....Definitely Class D and SMPS. Some knowledge has gone into them I think.
There are some models to choose from and sorry I have not found any English version for the text...
http://www.thomann.de/de/powersoft_digam_k10.htm
Swedish, but there is a picture of a K-amp without the lid:
http://www.crafton.se/crafton/pdf/webb06/Powersoft06.pdf
last summer I made some "research" about high quality PA amps.
The ones I found most interesting was from this German Manufacturer. POWERSOFT DIGAM.
They seems to have a good reputation for very good quality of sound and of reliability as well. Expensive as a new item but maybe a used one? The K-10 is capable of 2x4000W (which ones?) into 4 ohms or 6000 W into 2 ohms and weighs
12 kg. Bridge them for 12000W into 4 ohms. Nice....Definitely Class D and SMPS. Some knowledge has gone into them I think.
There are some models to choose from and sorry I have not found any English version for the text...
http://www.thomann.de/de/powersoft_digam_k10.htm
Swedish, but there is a picture of a K-amp without the lid:
http://www.crafton.se/crafton/pdf/webb06/Powersoft06.pdf
The golden mean said:Here we go again. Lightweight amplification isn´t too hard to find these days!
Mackie FRS series:
http://www.mackie.com/products/frsseries/splash.html
Mackie FRS aren't class-d, the lower power ones are class-ab and higher are class-h. With SMPS. Why not class-d? They don't know how to make them yet.
Now these look interesting:
http://vestax.com/v/products/active/vda1000.html
switchable power output setting and any kind of input you can think of.
Street price seems to be $550 US
The golden mean said:
I've been following Powersoft's progress for several years, and they have some extremely impressive stuff (the K20 is 20,000W with PFC in 1U!!!) at equally impressive prices (7000 euros for the K20) -- though when you write that as 350euros/kW it looks positively cheap
Their Digimod3000PFC would be ideal if they'd sell them to me... :-(
Ian
There´s a lot of stuff on this German site about the differences between certain PA amps.
http://www.paforum.de/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Sorry, I read German so and so and is not prepared to translate the extensive text to English, but what is indeed interesting is that people have compared amps in a live context.
They evaluate bass performance for instance, and while the conclusions may be subjective I prefer this to no evaluation at all!
For my part I seek a replacement for the $ 10.000 amp I use for the bass drivers. I´m going to triamp so the expensive amp may do its duty in mid frequencies territory(Accuton C 200 and 2x C79 per channel). I don´t care so much about weight. The Class A amp weighs 100 lbs and the current bass amp 60 lbs. Speakers will weigh about 400 lbs/ each if they ever will be finished.
By no means a PA-system!
http://www.paforum.de/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Sorry, I read German so and so and is not prepared to translate the extensive text to English, but what is indeed interesting is that people have compared amps in a live context.
They evaluate bass performance for instance, and while the conclusions may be subjective I prefer this to no evaluation at all!
For my part I seek a replacement for the $ 10.000 amp I use for the bass drivers. I´m going to triamp so the expensive amp may do its duty in mid frequencies territory(Accuton C 200 and 2x C79 per channel). I don´t care so much about weight. The Class A amp weighs 100 lbs and the current bass amp 60 lbs. Speakers will weigh about 400 lbs/ each if they ever will be finished.
By no means a PA-system!
For use with subs I think the (unfortunately discontinued) Crown K2 is hard to beat. Bridge them and you get 2500 W from each . Sorry they aren´t the most lightweight at about 38 pounds.
No fan but may pollute the mains to some extent....
http://home.earthlink.net/~mixthat/par/crownk2.html
A bit frustrating that you can buy them second hand in the US for about $ 600-700 or new for twice of that.
I saw a used one at www.audiomarkt.de for 1800 Euro. A bit too much I think.
No fan but may pollute the mains to some extent....
http://home.earthlink.net/~mixthat/par/crownk2.html
A bit frustrating that you can buy them second hand in the US for about $ 600-700 or new for twice of that.
I saw a used one at www.audiomarkt.de for 1800 Euro. A bit too much I think.
Not pro, but Wyred4sound and D-sonic sell multichannel amps using the ICE 1000ASP modules.
http://www.wyred4sound.com/ICE_CUBE_MC/MULTICHANNEL.html
http://www.d-sonic.net/
http://www.wyred4sound.com/ICE_CUBE_MC/MULTICHANNEL.html
http://www.d-sonic.net/
Returning to the subject of the thread...
I have used the Coldamp SPS80 in an implementation of the UcD400HG's. They were powered by the Hypex 1KVA toroid and the Hypex HG power supply before I moved them to a new case and installed the SPS80.
I have had no trouble at all with the Coldamp product, it works and sounds great. I don't hear any difference between it and the linear supply. The weight, part count reduction, wiring simplicity, and foot-print savings alone were worth the replacement.
I wasn't too thrilled that I had to alter it (minor soldering) to accomodate my US 110 mains voltage but it was easy and I guess not worth the time for Coldamp to manufacture a version based on such a minor change to what is already a DIY product.
In short, and to the point, in my personal experience their product works as advertised and their service was good. I would use them again without hesitation.
Regards,
Tom
I have used the Coldamp SPS80 in an implementation of the UcD400HG's. They were powered by the Hypex 1KVA toroid and the Hypex HG power supply before I moved them to a new case and installed the SPS80.
I have had no trouble at all with the Coldamp product, it works and sounds great. I don't hear any difference between it and the linear supply. The weight, part count reduction, wiring simplicity, and foot-print savings alone were worth the replacement.
I wasn't too thrilled that I had to alter it (minor soldering) to accomodate my US 110 mains voltage but it was easy and I guess not worth the time for Coldamp to manufacture a version based on such a minor change to what is already a DIY product.
In short, and to the point, in my personal experience their product works as advertised and their service was good. I would use them again without hesitation.
Regards,
Tom
Be very careful with SPS80 because at least the first batch of them were unsafe in terms of mains isolation and would not pass any safety agency approval. This was because the designer didn't allow proper PCB spacing between primary and secondary sides and he did choose an unsafe way to mount the primary side switching transistors to the heatsink. Some customer complained about a ticking noise too, which is a sign of bad control loop design. A switching mode power supply may be malfunctioning and unreliable in several ways and still not burst in smoke within a reasonable period of time.
The main problem is not how a designer gathers the knowledge, it's the fact that it's completely unfair to advertise and sell your very first prototypes as if they were state-of-the-art class D and SMPS, when they are full of hidden pitfallas that you don't know how to solve or don't know about at all because you have still a lot to learn.
Coldamp is like that:
Hey, I'm selling class D modules at $150 a piece but they produce a big turn-on thump that I don't know how to remove. I will disguise myself as a naive DIYer and I will ask some helpful forum member to fix my commercial product.
Hey, I want to implement post-filter feedback in my $150 commercial class-D module but I don't have a clue about how to do it. I will disguise myself again as a naive DIYer and I will ask some experienced forum member to design a good feedback loop for me.
Hey, I don't know how to do the transformer and capacitor calculations for my commercial $300 SMPS. I will disguise myself again as a naive DIYer and I will ask some guru at DIYaudio to do the math for me.
The main problem is not how a designer gathers the knowledge, it's the fact that it's completely unfair to advertise and sell your very first prototypes as if they were state-of-the-art class D and SMPS, when they are full of hidden pitfallas that you don't know how to solve or don't know about at all because you have still a lot to learn.
Coldamp is like that:
Hey, I'm selling class D modules at $150 a piece but they produce a big turn-on thump that I don't know how to remove. I will disguise myself as a naive DIYer and I will ask some helpful forum member to fix my commercial product.
Hey, I want to implement post-filter feedback in my $150 commercial class-D module but I don't have a clue about how to do it. I will disguise myself again as a naive DIYer and I will ask some experienced forum member to design a good feedback loop for me.
Hey, I don't know how to do the transformer and capacitor calculations for my commercial $300 SMPS. I will disguise myself again as a naive DIYer and I will ask some guru at DIYaudio to do the math for me.
EVA, now you have me worried...
EVA, now you have me worried. My implementation mounts the SPS80 directly to my metal equipment chassis which is grounded to the mains.
I have been confident (up till now) that any isolation failure of the SPS80 would be handled by this chassis ground.
I am no engineer and, believe me, if you are worried then so am I! Am I missing something dangerous?
Regards,
Tom
EVA, now you have me worried. My implementation mounts the SPS80 directly to my metal equipment chassis which is grounded to the mains.
I have been confident (up till now) that any isolation failure of the SPS80 would be handled by this chassis ground.
I am no engineer and, believe me, if you are worried then so am I! Am I missing something dangerous?
Regards,
Tom
"Am I missing something dangerous? "
Yes you are, you're missing the false sense of security that you used to enjoy before your eyes were opened.
Like Johnw said "terrifying". That's no understatement.
Also I have to say I find it kind of funny how a module user can look at a complex, high part count SMPS as a "parts reduction".
Look at the total number of parts from one to the other and calculate the odds of all that can go wrong.
If you want to stick with that ill designed trash I'd keep a fire extinguisher close by and never leave it plugged in unattended.
Do make careful note that equipment of this nature is far more complex than your typical vintage stuff and should be subject to a higher expectation than the typical user might care to know, like "well it seems to sound ok", yeah, but it might kill you.
Safety standards were brought up before, it's never mentioned it passed any and as Eva say's it most likely never could.
Yes you are, you're missing the false sense of security that you used to enjoy before your eyes were opened.
Like Johnw said "terrifying". That's no understatement.
Also I have to say I find it kind of funny how a module user can look at a complex, high part count SMPS as a "parts reduction".
Look at the total number of parts from one to the other and calculate the odds of all that can go wrong.
If you want to stick with that ill designed trash I'd keep a fire extinguisher close by and never leave it plugged in unattended.
Do make careful note that equipment of this nature is far more complex than your typical vintage stuff and should be subject to a higher expectation than the typical user might care to know, like "well it seems to sound ok", yeah, but it might kill you.
Safety standards were brought up before, it's never mentioned it passed any and as Eva say's it most likely never could.
If you are lucky, you may have a later version with the problem fixed. Safety regulations ask for 5mm to 8mm of air clearance between any mains live surface and the case and "isolated" circuits (this is in order to whitstand 3KV line transients without arcing). Now you may understand what I mean about inexpert people releasing commercial products too soon. What an urge to sell...
In practice, if your case and/or audio ground is connected to safety ground, and your electrical system is up to date, you will get a circuit breaker or ground fault breaker tripped instantly in case of problems.
Then another question arises: Was any EMI analysis and optimization carried out on that design, even at elementary level with just an oscilloscope? I don't know.
BTW: I wouldn't call it trash, as it actually works which is a great achievement. I would call it a prototype, something I wouldn't sell without further refinement.
In practice, if your case and/or audio ground is connected to safety ground, and your electrical system is up to date, you will get a circuit breaker or ground fault breaker tripped instantly in case of problems.
Then another question arises: Was any EMI analysis and optimization carried out on that design, even at elementary level with just an oscilloscope? I don't know.
BTW: I wouldn't call it trash, as it actually works which is a great achievement. I would call it a prototype, something I wouldn't sell without further refinement.
"you will get a circuit breaker or ground fault breaker tripped instantly in case of problems."
Taking for granted that a typical kit builder will take the care to properly bond the ground in such a way that it would not fail itself and work as expected.
"BTW: I wouldn't call it trash, as it actually works which is a great achievement. I would call it DIY prototype."
Speaking in terms of it being market worthy to hand over to non expert users, not proven to be bulletproof.. cleary it is not a diy prototype because it is on the market but I agree with you that it shouldn't have gone further than that, no ethical person would have done it.
Taking for granted that a typical kit builder will take the care to properly bond the ground in such a way that it would not fail itself and work as expected.
"BTW: I wouldn't call it trash, as it actually works which is a great achievement. I would call it DIY prototype."
Speaking in terms of it being market worthy to hand over to non expert users, not proven to be bulletproof.. cleary it is not a diy prototype because it is on the market but I agree with you that it shouldn't have gone further than that, no ethical person would have done it.
Read also at the ESP site about Coldamp:
http://sound.westhost.com/project89.htm
and
http://sound.westhost.com/project114.htm
I did buy 4 modules and two 12V smps, quick delivery, good service from Coldamp. When I'm finished my project I put some pics here.
Rob.
http://sound.westhost.com/project89.htm
and
http://sound.westhost.com/project114.htm
I did buy 4 modules and two 12V smps, quick delivery, good service from Coldamp. When I'm finished my project I put some pics here.
Rob.
I was considering one of the SPS80 to complement the BP4078's I purchased a little while back...a little daunted now.
Is the health/injury concern basically limited to the power supplies? I had a quick read through the ESP site and I think I might pursue his method rather than the SMPS that I was originally planning.
Is the health/injury concern basically limited to the power supplies? I had a quick read through the ESP site and I think I might pursue his method rather than the SMPS that I was originally planning.
SMPS could eventually be implemented right at least as safty consideretions is focused upon. Chord amps have a long tradition
in this respect. When it comes to Coldamp I am not sure about the competence of the designer.
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/chord_tech.asp?view=amp
in this respect. When it comes to Coldamp I am not sure about the competence of the designer.
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/chord_tech.asp?view=amp
The golden mean said:
There are plenty of companies worldwide capable of designing safe and efficient SMPS at a reasonable cost which would be suitable for audio applications -- the PC you're reading this one has a safe SMPS, and some of the better ones are even quite efficient nowadays.
Unfortunately few of these companies make amplifiers :-(
Ian
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