Mardis burn-in circuit
Here is the result of my interpretation of the circuit:
The circuit is very simple. I use a FM tumer for the signal source. Below is the Mardis burn-in circuit.
The Film caps I am testing with the exception of the MKTs will have better than 600 hours burn-in time on them. I noted the MKTs seemed to get better the more I played them. I suspect they will get better with more time.
Here is the result of my interpretation of the circuit:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thanks for waking this thread up, this thread could use an update with what is available now.
A few months ago I discovered the Mundorf M Supremes and did an A/B against a few caps on hand (Epcos, Audiophiler, etc.), they were in another league altogether. Fast forward a few months and I notice HIFIMEDIY is now using a version of these Mundorfs for the input caps on the T4. That says something about HIFIMEDIY and the Mundorfs.
I haven't read all 43 pages of this thread.
However, if you would like to test the sonics of a particular cap - buy a Yaqin CD3 tube buffer.
The CD3 is some version of a cathode follower, with a pair of 6sn7 tubes.
There are coupling caps on the input and output - that are very easy to change.
The caps in it are rated at 275v and I used 1uF.
As a coupling cap, I've found the Mundorf M-Cap Supremes make the sonics sound thick and forward.
M-Cap Supremes seem to be very good at filtering harshness from a digital source.
I've also tried Auricaps - which I'd say have a very natural sound,
but the music sounds further back than the Mundorf's.
IMO, AuriCap's and an M Caps Supremes seem to complement each other well.
Also, I'd say as a cap breaks in, its sonics seem to get more transparent.
One thing of note, film caps are non polarized.
However, the outside of the foil should be connected to the low Z side of the circuit,
so that the outside acts like a shield.
.
However, if you would like to test the sonics of a particular cap - buy a Yaqin CD3 tube buffer.
The CD3 is some version of a cathode follower, with a pair of 6sn7 tubes.
There are coupling caps on the input and output - that are very easy to change.
The caps in it are rated at 275v and I used 1uF.
As a coupling cap, I've found the Mundorf M-Cap Supremes make the sonics sound thick and forward.
M-Cap Supremes seem to be very good at filtering harshness from a digital source.
I've also tried Auricaps - which I'd say have a very natural sound,
but the music sounds further back than the Mundorf's.
IMO, AuriCap's and an M Caps Supremes seem to complement each other well.
Also, I'd say as a cap breaks in, its sonics seem to get more transparent.
One thing of note, film caps are non polarized.
However, the outside of the foil should be connected to the low Z side of the circuit,
so that the outside acts like a shield.
.
Here is the bottom view of the Yaqin CD3 tube buffer.
Original AuriCaps coupling the input - Mundorf M-Cap Supreme's on the output.
Not sure if I put them in with the correct orientation,
But they made a huge improvement to the original MKP's.
The unit is now very good at removing digital glare.
Original AuriCaps coupling the input - Mundorf M-Cap Supreme's on the output.
Not sure if I put them in with the correct orientation,
But they made a huge improvement to the original MKP's.
The unit is now very good at removing digital glare.
Attachments
This thread was originally started to test input caps to the T-Amp amplifiers. The topology I used to test these perspective caps had a minimal amount of circuits. I took this tact in an effort to isolate the sound of the cap. I used a CDP/DVD player as the source; generic ICs; which fed the input capacitor of the T-Amp.
When I undertook testing the various caps, I thought it wasn't pragmatic to consider "boutique" caps for such an inexpensive amplifier. When a single cap, quite often, cost more than the entire T-amp. To such just seemed to me a step in the wrong direction. Therefore, there are links within the thread directing you to test of the more exotic caps embedded in the thread.
Your suggestion for using a tube buffer I think introduces the possiblity of a number of colorizations. There is the input capacitor; the tube; and the output cap. Each yields its on signature on the sound within the tube buffer. I would agree that the balance you achieved with the caps you recommend, may will yield the results you desire for the "tube buffer," but to evaluate caps for T-Amps in general, I believe, such a tact introduces to many variables to determine the sonics of any one capacitor.
In my system I use a tube pre-amp to feed my T-Amps. The pre-amp, ICs, and speaker cables have all been selected by me to "color" the sound to my liking. Yes, I color the sound for my own day to day listening to soften that digital sound. The T-amps I currently use have the generic caps that came with the units. I used the source directly to the T-Amps, as well as, a tube buffer, but I like the balance of the sound (color) that comes from my tube pre-amp.
Overall, it seems that most users of T-Amps seemed to like tube buffers. The input coupling caps are a step short of tube driven front ends. I found that oil filled caps like the Obbligatos provided that tube sound in an input cap without the tube component.
However, If one did choose to use the tube buffer for T-Amp input cap evaluation, you could just bypass the T-Amp input caps. So, once you settled on the buffer input cap and tube, you could then swap output caps. With the bypassed/eliminated T-Amp input cap you could then home in on the sound of the cap you preferred.
Interest in this thread may have waned, because people have found that enjoying the music just took a higher priority. I am not aware of any major enhancements or products in the market in the intervening years. I would gladly consider revisiting testing new caps, but only from a technical perspective. Many people in this hobby have their egos attached to their equipment. All, too, often some misconstrue cost for quality. YMMV.
Hi everyone.
So I'm waiting for a YJ TA2020 to arrive and gathering info which components to get meanwhile. I was reading a TPA3116 wiki page about changing the input de-coupling caps. Would this make a difference here too, if i were to replace them with the Panasonic ECQ-E1106KF caps (metalized polyester, 10 uF 100V, 10%)?
Input DC De-coupling caps are probably the two red ones on each side between the TA2020 chip and the pot right? What about the two electrolytes between the heat sink and the four inductors? What are these meant to be for?
So I'm waiting for a YJ TA2020 to arrive and gathering info which components to get meanwhile. I was reading a TPA3116 wiki page about changing the input de-coupling caps. Would this make a difference here too, if i were to replace them with the Panasonic ECQ-E1106KF caps (metalized polyester, 10 uF 100V, 10%)?
Input DC De-coupling caps are probably the two red ones on each side between the TA2020 chip and the pot right? What about the two electrolytes between the heat sink and the four inductors? What are these meant to be for?
Cap Recommendations
Not having the schematic I would guess the electrolytic caps near the chip are tank caps. The capacitance on these caps usually can be increased. Make sure that you have a cap that has the same or greater voltage rating. The capacitance from what I recall can approach 2000 microfarads. Increasing the capacitance of these caps should yield greater bass.
The input coupling caps, in my opinion, have the greatest impact on the sound of the amplifier. Different capacitor topologies yield different sounds. Oil filled caps yield a warmer/fuller sound (closer to the tube sound). While any number of other topologies have a crisper sound. Some people think they sound "brittle" or bright.
Overall, the polyester caps yield a somewhat inferior sound. Metalized polyester caps are a step up over polyester. There are really some economical caps that yield really pleasing results. Mylar, tantalums, and electrolytics yield mediocre results as input caps. Google the "Picking Capacitors" article by Jung and Marsh.
Teflon is fast and thought to be superior to other technologies, but takes forever to break in and can cost a small fortune. The use of Teflon as a bypass cap for your input caps is an economical compromise.
Unfortunately, the input cap selection, tends to be very personal. You will just have to take the time to try various caps and take the time to listen, and determine what sounds good to your ears with the amp you are using. I suggest that you read through the thread and select a cap or two you think may like.
If I can be of further help, just ask.
Not having the schematic I would guess the electrolytic caps near the chip are tank caps. The capacitance on these caps usually can be increased. Make sure that you have a cap that has the same or greater voltage rating. The capacitance from what I recall can approach 2000 microfarads. Increasing the capacitance of these caps should yield greater bass.
The input coupling caps, in my opinion, have the greatest impact on the sound of the amplifier. Different capacitor topologies yield different sounds. Oil filled caps yield a warmer/fuller sound (closer to the tube sound). While any number of other topologies have a crisper sound. Some people think they sound "brittle" or bright.
Overall, the polyester caps yield a somewhat inferior sound. Metalized polyester caps are a step up over polyester. There are really some economical caps that yield really pleasing results. Mylar, tantalums, and electrolytics yield mediocre results as input caps. Google the "Picking Capacitors" article by Jung and Marsh.
Teflon is fast and thought to be superior to other technologies, but takes forever to break in and can cost a small fortune. The use of Teflon as a bypass cap for your input caps is an economical compromise.
Unfortunately, the input cap selection, tends to be very personal. You will just have to take the time to try various caps and take the time to listen, and determine what sounds good to your ears with the amp you are using. I suggest that you read through the thread and select a cap or two you think may like.
If I can be of further help, just ask.
Thank you Davet, will look into the article.
Just to verify - tank caps as in two cylindrical ones between the inductors and the heatsink. Well a typical electrolytic capacitor..
Is there any brand or even a model recommended for these? I've read that Black Gate are top notch, but ridiculously expensive. Is there any alternative?
Will experiment with the values when I get the board. Might go for some cheap caps with different values for starters and when finding a capacity I'm happy with I would buy the better capacitors.
Just to verify - tank caps as in two cylindrical ones between the inductors and the heatsink. Well a typical electrolytic capacitor..
Is there any brand or even a model recommended for these? I've read that Black Gate are top notch, but ridiculously expensive. Is there any alternative?
Will experiment with the values when I get the board. Might go for some cheap caps with different values for starters and when finding a capacity I'm happy with I would buy the better capacitors.
Tank Caps
You may use Blackgates or Elnas, but Panasonic capacitors will work and are economical compromises. Overall, any electrolytic will do, once you increase the capacitance. The caps with lower resistance specification should be "faster", but I can't comment on sonic differences. I have only increased capacitance or used F series Panasonic caps.
Larger capacitance caps may require more space. You may choose to physically mount larger caps from the other side of the board, Just make sure that you observe polarity when mounting the replacement.
I have used Blackgate electrolytics as input coupling caps, and they really make a difference sonically in that application. I have never used them for tank caps.
You may use Blackgates or Elnas, but Panasonic capacitors will work and are economical compromises. Overall, any electrolytic will do, once you increase the capacitance. The caps with lower resistance specification should be "faster", but I can't comment on sonic differences. I have only increased capacitance or used F series Panasonic caps.
Larger capacitance caps may require more space. You may choose to physically mount larger caps from the other side of the board, Just make sure that you observe polarity when mounting the replacement.
I have used Blackgate electrolytics as input coupling caps, and they really make a difference sonically in that application. I have never used them for tank caps.
all caps no matter what tipe, alters (ohh with paper and castor oil sound magnific,ohh but no! with stiroflex and snake oil sounds PERFECT) what comes from source! .
No Coupling Cap
Agreed!
Be forewarned input coupling (blocking) capacitors are necessary evils.
No cap is ideal, but one needs to be aware of DC voltage that may be coming from upstream. To flatly say no cap is necessary, although true, is irresponsible in a venue such as this.
To suggest one should remove the input coupling cap without the appropriate warning could lead to damaged equipment YMMV.
Agreed!
Be forewarned input coupling (blocking) capacitors are necessary evils.
No cap is ideal, but one needs to be aware of DC voltage that may be coming from upstream. To flatly say no cap is necessary, although true, is irresponsible in a venue such as this.
To suggest one should remove the input coupling cap without the appropriate warning could lead to damaged equipment YMMV.
I was so intrigued by the insight in recent thread posts that I had to bounce & post:
Would I gain anything by replacing C1, C2, or C3?
Schematic in Reply#33
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/177067-will-pay-belles-1-series-amp-info-schematic-4.html
Parts list elsewhere in the thread
If so, suggestions that don't require a second mortgage as in the sub-$100 per cap range?
Thx in advance, Tony
Would I gain anything by replacing C1, C2, or C3?
Schematic in Reply#33
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/177067-will-pay-belles-1-series-amp-info-schematic-4.html
Parts list elsewhere in the thread
If so, suggestions that don't require a second mortgage as in the sub-$100 per cap range?
Thx in advance, Tony
Cap upgrade
C3 would be a prime candidate for a capacitor upgrade. If this is a 80s vintage unit replacing the electrolytics would be beneficial throughout. No need to spend a fortune on this cap. Any reputable cap: Elna, Nichicon, Panasonic, etc. would be suitable replacements/upgrades. Cost would be less than $5 (USD) each. Try to use an "audio" grade cap. These caps tend to have lower internal resistance and ripple current (measurements).
If you can find a Blackgate (they are out of production) with the proper voltage and capacitance - it would be a sonic upgrade for C3.
C1 and C2 can be replaced with either polystyrene, Teflon, or other film cap (not Mylar or Polyester). Russian Teflon caps can be found on eBay for a really reasonable cost. Polystyrenes won't break the bank, either. Wima makes a number of film caps that may fill the bill. Make the changes to one channel and compare the mods to the unaltered channel.
Replacing the electrolytics in the power supply should provide improvements. The technology in capacitors has improved, considerably, in the past thirty years. Think of replacing the electrolytics akin to changing the belts or oil in a 30-year old car.
However, if your ego is tied to these mods you, are welcome to buy any number of boutique caps. These caps, in my opinion, can refine the sonics to your personal taste.
C3 would be a prime candidate for a capacitor upgrade. If this is a 80s vintage unit replacing the electrolytics would be beneficial throughout. No need to spend a fortune on this cap. Any reputable cap: Elna, Nichicon, Panasonic, etc. would be suitable replacements/upgrades. Cost would be less than $5 (USD) each. Try to use an "audio" grade cap. These caps tend to have lower internal resistance and ripple current (measurements).
If you can find a Blackgate (they are out of production) with the proper voltage and capacitance - it would be a sonic upgrade for C3.
C1 and C2 can be replaced with either polystyrene, Teflon, or other film cap (not Mylar or Polyester). Russian Teflon caps can be found on eBay for a really reasonable cost. Polystyrenes won't break the bank, either. Wima makes a number of film caps that may fill the bill. Make the changes to one channel and compare the mods to the unaltered channel.
Replacing the electrolytics in the power supply should provide improvements. The technology in capacitors has improved, considerably, in the past thirty years. Think of replacing the electrolytics akin to changing the belts or oil in a 30-year old car.
However, if your ego is tied to these mods you, are welcome to buy any number of boutique caps. These caps, in my opinion, can refine the sonics to your personal taste.
WOW Dave. Hugh thanks man! I hope this helps you & anyone else so eager to help me as I'm not a repair tech.
Most of the stuff on the PCBs I recognize and can shop for replacement or upgrade.
What follows is the labels and/or
a description of the caps. Some, like C2 is a no-brainer. But C1 or C3/11/12 I can, at best, only speculate.
C1 Z5F, 220K, 1KV, disc shapped, tan in color
C2 470uf, 10V, polarized, electrolytic
C3/11/12 (ceramic?)
3 tan disc shaped w/ "15" stamped on one side
in parallel, one "reversed" compared to the other two
C5/6 6.8uf +/- 5% 50V, black
C7/8 .1J, 100VF, green; film or polyester
C9/10. 100mf, 50V, polarized, electrolytic
A million thnx
Most of the stuff on the PCBs I recognize and can shop for replacement or upgrade.
What follows is the labels and/or
a description of the caps. Some, like C2 is a no-brainer. But C1 or C3/11/12 I can, at best, only speculate.
C1 Z5F, 220K, 1KV, disc shapped, tan in color
C2 470uf, 10V, polarized, electrolytic
C3/11/12 (ceramic?)
3 tan disc shaped w/ "15" stamped on one side
in parallel, one "reversed" compared to the other two
C5/6 6.8uf +/- 5% 50V, black
C7/8 .1J, 100VF, green; film or polyester
C9/10. 100mf, 50V, polarized, electrolytic
A million thnx
I don't know why you'd want to use 10uF input caps. What's the input impedance? Will have to look at the input resistors/feedback. 2.2uF or even 1.5uF has always been fine in my use. For tank caps I've hard good luck with the Panasonic FM series. They seem to handle all the RF noise well. Blackgate, not so much.
FWIW, I've probably built over 300 amps based on Tripath circuits. I like the little 2020 chip the best.
FWIW, I've probably built over 300 amps based on Tripath circuits. I like the little 2020 chip the best.
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