Gainclones in every variants (of course the best imho VBIGC with t-net) are very clever amps with very actual technology.
And what about easy, (relatively) cheap and very suitable speakers together with GC's?
I open this thread, because I found a very perfect combination GC/speaker...
Here it is:
Fostex FE103E in the recommended enclosure (backloaded horn, I compared this GC/speaker combination with many backloaded horns, Buschhorn, Cornu Spiralhorn, Coral Beta8 in FE206E).
My FE103E version looks like this (it is a perfect Nagaoka style horn):
No zobel, no LR, nothing needed at output (cables max 5-6 feet).
And a great result! Nothing is missing, but you never heard such a "dry" bass, I am sure.
But I know: my way is not the "true" way or the only way! Many roads are leading to Rome.
This thread is open, for everyone to document his GC/speaker combination.
But please: add every needed link and info for the speaker right here, as I try to do.
Here:
Plan for the horn enclosure:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/recom_enclose/103e_encl.pdf
Datasheet of the FE103E
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/fe103erev2.pdf
And last, but not least (how could I miss that?): an Excel sheet for the recommended enclosure with 16mm MDF/plywood, not 15mm like the original plan.
Again: I just opened this thread, because the combination is REALLY absolutely amazing! And I hope for good alternative information, maybe there is something more simple and better
out in the world?
Franz
And what about easy, (relatively) cheap and very suitable speakers together with GC's?
I open this thread, because I found a very perfect combination GC/speaker...
Here it is:
Fostex FE103E in the recommended enclosure (backloaded horn, I compared this GC/speaker combination with many backloaded horns, Buschhorn, Cornu Spiralhorn, Coral Beta8 in FE206E).
My FE103E version looks like this (it is a perfect Nagaoka style horn):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
No zobel, no LR, nothing needed at output (cables max 5-6 feet).
And a great result! Nothing is missing, but you never heard such a "dry" bass, I am sure.
But I know: my way is not the "true" way or the only way! Many roads are leading to Rome.
This thread is open, for everyone to document his GC/speaker combination.
But please: add every needed link and info for the speaker right here, as I try to do.
Here:
Plan for the horn enclosure:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/recom_enclose/103e_encl.pdf
Datasheet of the FE103E
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/fe103erev2.pdf
And last, but not least (how could I miss that?): an Excel sheet for the recommended enclosure with 16mm MDF/plywood, not 15mm like the original plan.
Again: I just opened this thread, because the combination is REALLY absolutely amazing! And I hope for good alternative information, maybe there is something more simple and better
out in the world?Franz
Franz G said:
What bass are you talking about?
If the specs are right, there's no more bass by 100Hz.
Perhaps it's a good speaker for certain types of music, like jazz quartets or chamber music. But I don't see that speaker doing so well in orchestral music, for instance. Quite directional too.
But curves certainly do not tell it all.
I do believe in a single speaker handling large frequency ranges, but it has to stand larger wattages too. 60/80 watts at least.
My problem with actual single speaker designs I have listened to, mostly Lowther based, is they do not sound dynamic and seem program dependant.
Carlos
Re: Re: Chipclone and speaker: suggestions for a perfect combination?
That's why it's "dry".
Yes, the problem with fullranges is that to have decent high-frequency the speakers need to be small.
But then they have no bass.
Use a bigger driver and treble goes away.
Anyway, there's a predominant midband (where the drivers have more sensitivity) that it's not what I call neutral.
If I was to use a fullrange driver I would end up with a three-way speaker.
Maby Franz has a special way of getting decent bass from a small fullrange driver?
BTW Franz, beautiful speaker.
carlmart said:
carlmart said:
That's why it's "dry".
carlmart said:
Yes, the problem with fullranges is that to have decent high-frequency the speakers need to be small.
But then they have no bass.
Use a bigger driver and treble goes away.
Anyway, there's a predominant midband (where the drivers have more sensitivity) that it's not what I call neutral.
If I was to use a fullrange driver I would end up with a three-way speaker.
Maby Franz has a special way of getting decent bass from a small fullrange driver?
BTW Franz, beautiful speaker.
I run a couple of 16 PE drivers/ribbon tweets line arrays with my BrianGT NIGC. Killer.
Billet clone
Line array
No shortage of UMPH.
Billet clone
Line array
No shortage of UMPH.
@Carlos and Carlos:
your reaction is more than ignorant! Please, don't blame yourself, when you dont understand something!
Your reaction is just the same, when I tell some tube freak, he should listen to a VBIGC: complete ignorance.
O.K.
If this is your way!
Hey man: this are the specs from the speaker, not the measurements from the horn.
Franz
your reaction is more than ignorant! Please, don't blame yourself, when you dont understand something!
Your reaction is just the same, when I tell some tube freak, he should listen to a VBIGC: complete ignorance.
O.K.
If this is your way!
Hey man: this are the specs from the speaker, not the measurements from the horn.
Franz
I am planning to build Tim Forman's bipole Voigt pipes with FE103/RS 40-1197s to go with my VBIGC (still unfinished...
). I haven't heard them, but those who have are quite impressed.
I would post a link to Tim's site, but when I try to open the page now, I only get a message saying that the file is missing ...
). I haven't heard them, but those who have are quite impressed.I would post a link to Tim's site, but when I try to open the page now, I only get a message saying that the file is missing
...
I like the idea of this thread!
The Gainclone enabled us to build an excellent sounding amp for minimal cost. I think what Franz is getting at, is can we now find a really good sounding speaker that will go with the GC and provide megabucks sound for minibucks cost?
Of course, speakers tend to depend more on the listening room (and musical preferences) than a GC will, and that will influence the choice of speaker type, box, horn types, open baffle etc.
I find open baffles sound very good and are relatively easy to design if a full-range driver is used. BUT, I have augmented the main drivers in mine with (big) TL woofers and a tweeter (just in case Carlos visits you understand), so I can't really claim they are so simple of low-cost anymore.
On the other hand, the OB's that Norbert constructed with the Ciare 250 drivers are a fine example of a low-cost high-quality speaker that is fairly easy to construct as well!
Horns do seem to be like valve amps by which I mean that you have ardent followers of them or others that want to stay well clear. Although very happy with my present speakers, I will try horns when I can afford to build some. I do agree that the OB's can sound a little undynamic so will horns 'do it for me'?
And what about active speakers? The amplification is still low-cost with a GC; and an active crossover does not have to be either costly or complex.
I can thoroughly recommend the active speakers as described on Decibel Dungeon. They worked well with my old Arcam A60 amps and I am sure they will sound even better with GC amplification (when I can find the time to hook it all up!)
But for me, the goal will always be somethng as simple as possible. Something that a beginner could put together easily, not cost too much, and sound beautiful with the GC!
Franz has put his FE103 horns up as an example and for me they go some way to meeting the above requirements. So let's not knock them but instead come up with other viable suggestions!
The Gainclone enabled us to build an excellent sounding amp for minimal cost. I think what Franz is getting at, is can we now find a really good sounding speaker that will go with the GC and provide megabucks sound for minibucks cost?
Of course, speakers tend to depend more on the listening room (and musical preferences) than a GC will, and that will influence the choice of speaker type, box, horn types, open baffle etc.
I find open baffles sound very good and are relatively easy to design if a full-range driver is used. BUT, I have augmented the main drivers in mine with (big) TL woofers and a tweeter (just in case Carlos visits you understand), so I can't really claim they are so simple of low-cost anymore.
On the other hand, the OB's that Norbert constructed with the Ciare 250 drivers are a fine example of a low-cost high-quality speaker that is fairly easy to construct as well!
Horns do seem to be like valve amps by which I mean that you have ardent followers of them or others that want to stay well clear. Although very happy with my present speakers, I will try horns when I can afford to build some. I do agree that the OB's can sound a little undynamic so will horns 'do it for me'?
And what about active speakers? The amplification is still low-cost with a GC; and an active crossover does not have to be either costly or complex.
I can thoroughly recommend the active speakers as described on Decibel Dungeon. They worked well with my old Arcam A60 amps and I am sure they will sound even better with GC amplification (when I can find the time to hook it all up!)
But for me, the goal will always be somethng as simple as possible. Something that a beginner could put together easily, not cost too much, and sound beautiful with the GC!
Franz has put his FE103 horns up as an example and for me they go some way to meeting the above requirements. So let's not knock them but instead come up with other viable suggestions!
Hi!
Here is what I use my GC with (actually, mine looks a lot better, this site has nothing to do with me...):
Cheap Trick 193
The price I paid for materials (including chassis) was 35 € per speaker...
The combination sits in my sleeping room, and you'd be amazed at the amount of bass this combo produces in a not so big room (and that comes from someone who uses a 120l / 15" Subwoofer in his main system...)
Bye,
Arndt
Here is what I use my GC with (actually, mine looks a lot better, this site has nothing to do with me...):
Cheap Trick 193
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The price I paid for materials (including chassis) was 35 € per speaker...
The combination sits in my sleeping room, and you'd be amazed at the amount of bass this combo produces in a not so big room (and that comes from someone who uses a 120l / 15" Subwoofer in his main system...)
Bye,
Arndt
Franz, just because I have my own oppinion about fullranges that is just my oppinion, not my ignorance.
If I was like you, I would call you an ignorant just because you don't have my oppinion.
Your approach is appropriate for a typical Gainclone: simple (non-existant in this case) crossover, high sensitivity and easy load.
But I like simple 2-way speakers, no one is going to change my mind (and my ears) about that.
My approach is: pick a good woofer that doesn't need a crossover or goes fine with a simple first order. First order on the tweeter too (just a cap and, in most cases, a resistor).
This is what I have with my bedroom speakers made with Seas drivers, and also on my main system, Epos 11, a commercial product (and a good one btw).
EDIT: I repeat, this is my oppinion, nobody is attacking no one.
I don't know how do you guys interpret the posts, both me and Carlos Martinez were just giving our oppinions.
If I was like you, I would call you an ignorant just because you don't have my oppinion.
Your approach is appropriate for a typical Gainclone: simple (non-existant in this case) crossover, high sensitivity and easy load.
But I like simple 2-way speakers, no one is going to change my mind (and my ears) about that.
My approach is: pick a good woofer that doesn't need a crossover or goes fine with a simple first order. First order on the tweeter too (just a cap and, in most cases, a resistor).
This is what I have with my bedroom speakers made with Seas drivers, and also on my main system, Epos 11, a commercial product (and a good one btw).
EDIT: I repeat, this is my oppinion, nobody is attacking no one.
I don't know how do you guys interpret the posts, both me and Carlos Martinez were just giving our oppinions.
Franz G said:
Saying someone is ignorant without really knowing where that person comes from, just because that someone DARES to differ with a certain proposal, is the real ignorance. And as I said once here I refuse to be treated like a child.
What I said, and stay by it, is that such arrangement will sound better according to the program you feed in. Some designs are better in handling most kind of programs. That is not one of them.
I certainly respect your preferences and your defending them, but will not accept being attacked because I did what I consider a respectful comment.
Of course. But horns do not really add what the speaker will not provide. The bass is dry because it does not get too low.
Carlos
ofb said:
You are right on complaining on that.
I listened to the gainclones (IGC and NIGC) on high quality 3-way and 2-way speakers.
These are speakers my friend builds in Argentina, and can be compared to the best there is. Through my friend I got to know quite a lot on speaker design, and I have seen lots of curves measured on his setup from tons of drivers from all over the world.
I tend to like speaker designs who have one wide frequency range main driver, using vaccum formed paper cones and rubber surrounds. The treble end sounds better with some cloth dome speakers, and I tend to like a subwoofer to take care of below 150Hz sounds. On this I differ from my friend, who uses a 10" driver to handle below 300Hz frequencies.
My task is for music to sound natural, and I know what that is because I was a film location audio engineer in my '30s. So my reference are real instruments and even real sounds when I listen to film videos.
I wish I had listened more to electrostatic panels or ribbons, and plan to do that shortly. They seem to sound quite natural too and fulfill that full-range requirement above.
Though I am not so sure if a GC will handle them.
Carlos
I think I understand what Franz is talking about. FE103E has excellent midrange that one will have to do a lot of work to achieve by conventional multi-way (whether 2- or 3-way) speaker. However even in the back loaded horn (it wasn’t Fostex’s recommended) it misses the bass. You can hear it but it has not authority, and even more important, because it is horn it is hollow (oh yes, it is fine with me if one can make a horn not sounding hollow). This in essence makes the good speaker for acoustic but marginally suited for electronic music. As about the treble, it practically disappears completely above 15kHz below which point there is the bump probably making general tonal balance acceptable. Been listened to with IGC, buffered and not buffered.
Since the graphs published by Fostex are heavily smoothed, here is the one, I believe, more representative. If memory serves, baffle was 19cm wide.
Here is the low frequency response, the graph shows summed curve (cone + horn’s mouth). Not scaled with previous graph. Once again, this is not Fostex's recommended enclosure.
And here is the waterfall.
Pedja
Since the graphs published by Fostex are heavily smoothed, here is the one, I believe, more representative. If memory serves, baffle was 19cm wide.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is the low frequency response, the graph shows summed curve (cone + horn’s mouth). Not scaled with previous graph. Once again, this is not Fostex's recommended enclosure.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here is the waterfall.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Pedja
falcott said:I am planning to build Tim Forman's bipole Voigt pipes with FE103/RS 40-1197s to go with my VBIGC (still unfinished...
No word from RS about the 1197s... Tim's speaker is quite amazing, who says a 4" can't do bass, Maybe not the lowest registers, but satisfying. The low bass, if you really miss it, is the job of the active woofers.
The 1197 & even more so the FE103A are very good in the Buschorn... i haven't had the opportunity to play with a "real" FE103 yet, but based on everything i've heard and extrapolating from the 1197, FE103A, & FE108 should be quite sweet (of course with room for improvement thru tweaking)
dave
Carlos and Carlos
I am very sorry, but both of you neglected some bass reproduction of a backloaded horn with a 4" driver.
This is not an opinion, I call this ignorance.
Because a perfect bass reproduction with the nagaoka style horn is guaranteed (Fostex write about the horn: ...for extended low frequency reproduction). Dont forget: recommended enclosure texts from Fostex are some kind of application notes: Fostex is interested for very good applications out in the field!
BTW: Buschhorn don't do the job as well as the fostex recommended enclosure.
Why does it work? Simple: it is a question of impedance matching between the speaker and the room. The horn does this job.
So, it is in fact better not to use big and heavy cones, but a small, light and very controlled one, driving a horn for the bass.
My most critical testuser has a setup with a separate sub. But he was a few days ago completely convinced by the FE103 horn solution. He is aware of some phase shift problems with the sub ("sometimes, it sounds like tinitus").
BTW: I had my FE103E horns dusty in a dark corner and reactivated them just for a short test with the gainclone. Great.
Actually, I prefer it over an Fostex FE108ESigma, Vifa 10BGS and my absolute love, Coral Beta 8!
Franz
I am very sorry, but both of you neglected some bass reproduction of a backloaded horn with a 4" driver.
This is not an opinion, I call this ignorance.
Because a perfect bass reproduction with the nagaoka style horn is guaranteed (Fostex write about the horn: ...for extended low frequency reproduction). Dont forget: recommended enclosure texts from Fostex are some kind of application notes: Fostex is interested for very good applications out in the field!
BTW: Buschhorn don't do the job as well as the fostex recommended enclosure.
Why does it work? Simple: it is a question of impedance matching between the speaker and the room. The horn does this job.
So, it is in fact better not to use big and heavy cones, but a small, light and very controlled one, driving a horn for the bass.
My most critical testuser has a setup with a separate sub. But he was a few days ago completely convinced by the FE103 horn solution. He is aware of some phase shift problems with the sub ("sometimes, it sounds like tinitus").
BTW: I had my FE103E horns dusty in a dark corner and reactivated them just for a short test with the gainclone. Great.
Actually, I prefer it over an Fostex FE108ESigma, Vifa 10BGS and my absolute love, Coral Beta 8!
Franz
Another excellent small fullrange speaker (3") is the Veravox 3 with neodyne magnet from Cantare AS, a very small german brand.
Here you find a brand new plan to build a TQWT, the Vera Q (sorry, text just in german available):
Link to Veravox 3 TQWT
It is worth, to scroll down to the graph called "Veravox 3 gesamt"
Franz
P.S.
I love the Veravox 3 in ceramic balls like this, but then, a sub is needed: http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/fullrange/msg.php?idx=14080
Here you find a brand new plan to build a TQWT, the Vera Q (sorry, text just in german available):
Link to Veravox 3 TQWT
It is worth, to scroll down to the graph called "Veravox 3 gesamt"
Franz
P.S.
I love the Veravox 3 in ceramic balls like this, but then, a sub is needed: http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/fullrange/msg.php?idx=14080
... to late to edit.
I forgot to mention: all this small fullrange speakers with a backloaded horn are of course not able to play music at high levels.
They are suitable for small to medium rooms.
You will not be satisfied, when you like to drive for example Reggae in high level. Definitely not!
You will not be satisfied, when you drive for example a Volkswagen GTI with boomer single tone bass.
Franz
-----------------------------------------
... out of the country of the alphorn, where a deep and loud bass is produced just by small lips.
I forgot to mention: all this small fullrange speakers with a backloaded horn are of course not able to play music at high levels.
They are suitable for small to medium rooms.
You will not be satisfied, when you like to drive for example Reggae in high level. Definitely not!
You will not be satisfied, when you drive for example a Volkswagen GTI with boomer single tone bass.
Franz
-----------------------------------------
... out of the country of the alphorn, where a deep and loud bass is produced just by small lips.
Will I be satisfied? I hope so... 
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