chipamp lm3886 lm4780 classical orchestral music
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-> https://www.google.com/search?q=gainclone+chip+amp+lm3886+lm4780+classical+orchestral+music
Nothing.
Google.com gainclone chip amp lm3886 lm4780 classical orchestral music
-> https://www.google.com/search?q=gainclone+chip+amp+lm3886+lm4780+classical+orchestral+music
Nothing.
Google.com gainclone chip amp lm3886 lm4780 world music :
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Nothing..
You can try with over style of music, nothing
Phil.
https://www.google.fr/search?q=gain...=gainclone+chip+amp+lm3886+lm4780+world+music
Nothing..
You can try with over style of music, nothing
Phil.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vend...r-achieving-0-0004-thd-n-170.html#post4385864
Wow do I hear an echo...
Wow do I hear an echo...
I read your specs as 86 dB fro Kef.com, not 88. Anyway, that 50 watts is maximum SINUSOIDAL power. Which means without clipping. Peaks above 50 watts will clip. Which in orchestral music is 20 dB, so your max average volume is going to be 98-20=76 dB.
You can easily hold a conversation at this level, without screaming at each other. This is nowhere near the volume I think you are dreaming about, when you speak about Beethoven.
If you are married to these speakers, I would forget this small amp and concentrate on an amp that will deliver the power you seem to be looking for.
Given those speakers, I would be looking for an amp in the 150 wpc range. But the max is only 100 watts. 100 watts gives you an average of 83 dB at your listening seat. Once you go higher than that, 20 dB peaks will clip ( unless the amp has some sort of 'headroom' figure built in....some do say 3dB headroom).
That 100 watt amp with 3 dB headroom *might* be enough, but basically, I think the speakers are not intended for the music you want to hear, at the volume you want to hear it. This is not an amplifier issue.
If I am wrong, and you do not listen too loudly, you can make 100 watts with a Parallel-86. Otherwise, I believe you will prefer to use more efficient speakers. Then lower powered amplifiers become feasible.
I live in a simple world:
In my opinion, the issue of sonic quality is largely addressed by the distortion level of the amp and it's distortion spectra. Dominant 3rd and 5th order are detailed, individual instruments can be more easily isolated. Dominant second and 4th order are not, they tend to make instruments sound thicker... so massed instruments become more difficult to unravel. The Modulus-86 has very low distortion. I can *clearly* hear the quality of the components up stream -- there is no coloration.
RE: MY_REF: If someone is suggesting that the my-ref sounds like a tube amp, are they also suggesting that my_ref has dominant 2nd order harmonics? Or are they suggesting that the high end is rolled off? ( Those are two common comments about tube amps generally made by people that think tube amps ought to have a sound. So is "slow bass" whatever than means....)
IMO, dynamics are a function of output power and the ability of the power supply to provide enough current so that the power rails don't sag on transients. You can build such a supply for any power level. Obviously, this is more easily done with lower powered amps.
I believe your needs would be best met with more efficient speakers. But I could be wrong... you could be listening to just background music....
You can easily hold a conversation at this level, without screaming at each other. This is nowhere near the volume I think you are dreaming about, when you speak about Beethoven.
If you are married to these speakers, I would forget this small amp and concentrate on an amp that will deliver the power you seem to be looking for.
Given those speakers, I would be looking for an amp in the 150 wpc range. But the max is only 100 watts. 100 watts gives you an average of 83 dB at your listening seat. Once you go higher than that, 20 dB peaks will clip ( unless the amp has some sort of 'headroom' figure built in....some do say 3dB headroom).
That 100 watt amp with 3 dB headroom *might* be enough, but basically, I think the speakers are not intended for the music you want to hear, at the volume you want to hear it. This is not an amplifier issue.
If I am wrong, and you do not listen too loudly, you can make 100 watts with a Parallel-86. Otherwise, I believe you will prefer to use more efficient speakers. Then lower powered amplifiers become feasible.
I live in a simple world:
In my opinion, the issue of sonic quality is largely addressed by the distortion level of the amp and it's distortion spectra. Dominant 3rd and 5th order are detailed, individual instruments can be more easily isolated. Dominant second and 4th order are not, they tend to make instruments sound thicker... so massed instruments become more difficult to unravel. The Modulus-86 has very low distortion. I can *clearly* hear the quality of the components up stream -- there is no coloration.
RE: MY_REF: If someone is suggesting that the my-ref sounds like a tube amp, are they also suggesting that my_ref has dominant 2nd order harmonics? Or are they suggesting that the high end is rolled off? ( Those are two common comments about tube amps generally made by people that think tube amps ought to have a sound. So is "slow bass" whatever than means....)
IMO, dynamics are a function of output power and the ability of the power supply to provide enough current so that the power rails don't sag on transients. You can build such a supply for any power level. Obviously, this is more easily done with lower powered amps.
I believe your needs would be best met with more efficient speakers. But I could be wrong... you could be listening to just background music....
Last edited:
Sonómetro : Sound Meter
-> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kr.sira.sound&hl=es
Mar 28, 2015
-> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kr.sira.sound&hl=es
Mar 28, 2015
Sorry for being a bit late to the party here. I've been pretty busy lately.
As far as my qualifications go, my resume/CV is available for anyone to read on my website: Neurochrome :: Audio, About & CV (man, I really need to update that CV). My first real job was as an electronics tech while I was still in high school, so I can confidently say I've been employed in the field of electronics since 1991. My tinkering/DIY experience dates back to the early 1980ies. I graduated with a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Washington, Seattle in 2002 and was three years into a PhD in Electrical Engineering when I had the opportunity to sign on with National Semiconductor as a summer intern. I decided to skip the PhD and have worked 10+ years in the semiconductor business as an IC design engineer on precision analog circuits.
I'm not expecting anyone to memorize my qualifications, so if someone called me a tech, I'm sure no offense was intended. I don't see any reason to get spooled up over that. No worries.
I come at circuit design from an engineering angle. There's a large body of research data which shows a strong correlation between good measurements and a good listener experience. I have therefore chosen to design for good performance across a wide range of parameters. The ultra low THD of the MOD86 was achieved by maximizing the loop gain. This drove down the THD, increased the PSRR, and improved other parameters as well. I then added a differential input for stellar CMRR. I have the test equipment and expertise to measure these parameters. When tweaking a component value, I can quantify how much degradation or improvement in the various parameters resulted and use this data to drive my circuit design decisions. At the end of it all, I obviously listen to music played through the amp.
To me, the data driven approach is the fastest way to good sound quality. This means I have time for more product development and product support.
I'm confident that I've teased out as much performance as possible from the LM3886 at this time.
I provide circuits which are well designed, well tested, well characterized, and well documented. I do my absolute best to provide the best customer service as well. The best way to contact me is via email and I answer a fair bit of technical questions there.
Tom
As far as my qualifications go, my resume/CV is available for anyone to read on my website: Neurochrome :: Audio, About & CV (man, I really need to update that CV). My first real job was as an electronics tech while I was still in high school, so I can confidently say I've been employed in the field of electronics since 1991. My tinkering/DIY experience dates back to the early 1980ies. I graduated with a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Washington, Seattle in 2002 and was three years into a PhD in Electrical Engineering when I had the opportunity to sign on with National Semiconductor as a summer intern. I decided to skip the PhD and have worked 10+ years in the semiconductor business as an IC design engineer on precision analog circuits.
I'm not expecting anyone to memorize my qualifications, so if someone called me a tech, I'm sure no offense was intended. I don't see any reason to get spooled up over that. No worries.
I come at circuit design from an engineering angle. There's a large body of research data which shows a strong correlation between good measurements and a good listener experience. I have therefore chosen to design for good performance across a wide range of parameters. The ultra low THD of the MOD86 was achieved by maximizing the loop gain. This drove down the THD, increased the PSRR, and improved other parameters as well. I then added a differential input for stellar CMRR. I have the test equipment and expertise to measure these parameters. When tweaking a component value, I can quantify how much degradation or improvement in the various parameters resulted and use this data to drive my circuit design decisions. At the end of it all, I obviously listen to music played through the amp.
To me, the data driven approach is the fastest way to good sound quality. This means I have time for more product development and product support.
I'm confident that I've teased out as much performance as possible from the LM3886 at this time.
I provide circuits which are well designed, well tested, well characterized, and well documented. I do my absolute best to provide the best customer service as well. The best way to contact me is via email and I answer a fair bit of technical questions there.
Tom
Amen
Beethoven 5th is a good example, but not the beginning. During the 1st movement there is a PP oboe solo followed by FF orchestra, in typical Beethoven overkill humor. You need the tonal accuracy to get the oboe right, then you need the power with accuracy to get the orchestra right. It is 40dB dynamic range on modern recordings like BIS/Vanska/Minnestota. Same thing happens on Beethoven 9 when the FF chorus stops for the little 3 instrument parade band to walk by, then resumes the 200 people playing and singing as loud as they can. There is minimal compression on modern classical CDs.
Mod86 has the tonal accuracy you want for symphonies. It is as good as any amp I've heard for clarity, tonal accuracy, incisiveness, presence. The question is power. You need a lot of power to play symphonies. You need low distortion speakers which are usually a little less sensitive and you need big power for large dynamic peaks. With traditional amps distortion rises with power, so if youwant relaxed effortless feeling during symphonic crescendos and peaks, you need an amp that is 10x higher max power than you peak power requirements for your speaker playing your volume with your music. Figure 50W peak at 100dB, you need 500W normal amp to prevent reaching for the volume when it gets loud. Now go try to find a 500W amp that sounds as good as Mod86 even at 1W. It will be very expensive. Of course there are exceptions, but not for tone, power and price all in one.
If you use inefficient or passive XO speakers, Par86 makes 100W and can be paralleled or bridged with more Par86s for more power, but you still have the pure tone quality and detail of Mod86 because it is essentially the same amp.
Oh, I hope my comment to MadisonEars was taken in the jest I meant it. The winky face was precisely to that humorous effect.
Ignoring sound quality entirely, an honest couple questions for you Tom that goes along my earlier suggestion:
1.) Having sold at least a few dozen boards at this point, how are people getting on with the build process? Obviously, some people have a lot more ambition than time and have stalled out for reasons entirely unrelated to the build complexity, but have thing been, by and large, easy for people to work through and debug?
2.) What sorts of experience do the people who've been buying your kits represent? Has the "fallen out of the back of the turnip truck" type been as successful as someone who has plenty of test gear (and knows how to use it)?
Ignoring sound quality entirely, an honest couple questions for you Tom that goes along my earlier suggestion:
1.) Having sold at least a few dozen boards at this point, how are people getting on with the build process? Obviously, some people have a lot more ambition than time and have stalled out for reasons entirely unrelated to the build complexity, but have thing been, by and large, easy for people to work through and debug?
2.) What sorts of experience do the people who've been buying your kits represent? Has the "fallen out of the back of the turnip truck" type been as successful as someone who has plenty of test gear (and knows how to use it)?
Tom
I've just seen an old post from you that confirms that there is no speaker protection circuitry included in your design / pcb and that would need to be added. I got the impression from your website that your PCBs plus components plus toroid plus chassis / heat sink were all that you needed - ?
I've just seen an old post from you that confirms that there is no speaker protection circuitry included in your design / pcb and that would need to be added. I got the impression from your website that your PCBs plus components plus toroid plus chassis / heat sink were all that you needed - ?
Good questions! My technical knowledge and DIY skills are modest shall we say.Oh, I hope my comment to MadisonEars was taken in the jest I meant it. The winky face was precisely to that humorous effect.
Ignoring sound quality entirely, an honest couple questions for you Tom that goes along my earlier suggestion:
1.) Having sold at least a few dozen boards at this point, how are people getting on with the build process? Obviously, some people have a lot more ambition than time and have stalled out for reasons entirely unrelated to the build complexity, but have thing been, by and large, easy for people to work through and debug?
2.) What sorts of experience do the people who've been buying your kits represent? Has the "fallen out of the back of the turnip truck" type been as successful as someone who has plenty of test gear (and knows how to use it)?
LM3886 has built in protection against excess current and temperature.
From specsheet:
"The performance of the LM3886, utilizing its Self Peak Instantaneous Temperature (°Ke) (SPiKe) ±35V protection circuitry, puts it in a class above discrete and hybrid amplifiers by providing an inherently, dynamically protected Safe Operating Area (SOA).
SPiKe protection means that these parts are completely safeguarded at the output against overvoltage, undervoltage, overloads, including shorts from a Short to Ground or to the supplies, thermal runaway, and instantaneous
to the Supplies via Internal Current Limiting temperature peaks."
Fred, no offense taken. Audio bulletin board users must develop thick skin, along with other skills.
Tom, you are the consummate professional, and I'm sure you offer a fine product. Glad to see you contributing here and elsewhere.
I really like some of the features of the Mod86, and I admire the way it meets the designer's goals. I really like the way the MyRef sounds (it does not add distortion or roll off the highs; it simply does not sound like a SS amp), and I have seen it posted here that it also measures better than many commercial offerings. It might not have as many zeroes as the Mod86, but can anyone really hear the difference between .004 and .008 or whatever? Of course not. At some point, mere zeroes do NOT tell the whole story.
Pity that all the hot air here has still not addressed the original question: has anyone heard both? Some good points have been made, even by some of you gasbags who have heard neither. Wish I could hear the Mod86 and offer an informed opinion, but then it would be just another useless subjective impression. If all one has is a pair of ears and not a lab full of measuring gear to detect how many zeroes follow the decimal point, one's opinion means nothing. Ridiculous.
If you want balanced/SE inputs, Mod86. If you want vanishingly low measured distortion and noise, Mod86, with MyRef an inaudibly close second. If you want through-hole simplicity, Mod86. If you want economy and newer SMD technology, MyRef. If you want build-and-play consistency, Mod86. If you want to tinker and tailor the tone of the amplifier sound to your liking, MyRef. If you want on/off/failure speaker protection via relay, not just what is provided by the LM3886, MyRef. If you want an amp designed by a talented professional design engineer with access to reference testing equipment (who also has a modest commercial interest and provides thorough technical support), Mod86. If you want one designed by a very clever person with more than a little technical knowledge and an obsession with making the best sounding chip amp (who then bestowed the design to the DIY community and was practically chased away by "smart" people), which is supported and has been refined by a large population of dedicated builders, MyRef. Carry on from here...
Peace,
Tom E
Tom, you are the consummate professional, and I'm sure you offer a fine product. Glad to see you contributing here and elsewhere.
I really like some of the features of the Mod86, and I admire the way it meets the designer's goals. I really like the way the MyRef sounds (it does not add distortion or roll off the highs; it simply does not sound like a SS amp), and I have seen it posted here that it also measures better than many commercial offerings. It might not have as many zeroes as the Mod86, but can anyone really hear the difference between .004 and .008 or whatever? Of course not. At some point, mere zeroes do NOT tell the whole story.
Pity that all the hot air here has still not addressed the original question: has anyone heard both? Some good points have been made, even by some of you gasbags who have heard neither. Wish I could hear the Mod86 and offer an informed opinion, but then it would be just another useless subjective impression. If all one has is a pair of ears and not a lab full of measuring gear to detect how many zeroes follow the decimal point, one's opinion means nothing. Ridiculous.
If you want balanced/SE inputs, Mod86. If you want vanishingly low measured distortion and noise, Mod86, with MyRef an inaudibly close second. If you want through-hole simplicity, Mod86. If you want economy and newer SMD technology, MyRef. If you want build-and-play consistency, Mod86. If you want to tinker and tailor the tone of the amplifier sound to your liking, MyRef. If you want on/off/failure speaker protection via relay, not just what is provided by the LM3886, MyRef. If you want an amp designed by a talented professional design engineer with access to reference testing equipment (who also has a modest commercial interest and provides thorough technical support), Mod86. If you want one designed by a very clever person with more than a little technical knowledge and an obsession with making the best sounding chip amp (who then bestowed the design to the DIY community and was practically chased away by "smart" people), which is supported and has been refined by a large population of dedicated builders, MyRef. Carry on from here...
Peace,
Tom E
I've lost track of the number of builders who have reported success. It's probably between 10 and 20. Most builds are stereo builds, but quite a few 4-channel builds exist as well. It's a fairly small subset of builders - maybe 15 % - who report back when their amp works. I have also have a couple of builders report, "this amp rocks and I would like to buy more boards". So overall it's a rather successful project.
I have had exactly two people who got stuck and needed some help getting unstuck. In one of those cases, the builder used a pair of switchmode supplies. The supplies didn't like being connected in series, so one of the rails collapsed. The MOD86 doesn't work if you only supply VCC. It needs VEE as well. Funny that...
In the other case, the builder installed the voltage regulators backwards. The silk screen on the board shows the flat on the TO-92 package, but that this should line up with the flat side of the package was missed.In both cases the problem was identified within a few hours of email exchange. Once corrected, the amps worked as specified.
My impression is that the experience level ranges from "have assembled a kit or two" to "I do this for a living". The people who are new to electronics and soldering have, so far, been savvy enough to ask before buying. I don't turn people away, but I am clear that I expect the builder to come in with at least the ability to identify the cathode on a diode, pin 1 on an IC, and the flat on a TO-92 package. They should also have pretty decent soldering skills. The idea here is to communicate expectations and set people up for success.
As someone mentioned already, the LM3886 does have some protection built in for over-current and over-heating. There is no protection circuit to protect your speaker if the LM3886 blows. The LM3886 is pretty darn rugged, so I doubt you'll be able to blow one, but it could happen. Many amps work just fine without the protection circuitry.
Designing a protection circuit is a challenge in its own right. It needs to actually provide protection - i.e. work fast in the event of a catastrophic failure. It also needs to be sonically transparent (not add to the THD). It should not trigger on false errors. That's a pretty tall order, actually.
I run my amps without protection. I sleep well at night...
Tom
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