SQ is a pretty vague term, and no one is qualified to say which amp will sound better to you. I am a devoted user of the MyRef designs in all their permutations, so my comments are biased. I have not heard the Mod86, but I have followed the various threads to some extent. I defer to anyone who has directly compared the sound of the two designs.
The MyRef was designed and freely provided by Mauro Penasa, whose goal was to produce a better sounding chip amplifier. He began with a basic circuit concept and proceeded to fine tune the design until he reached what he considered a satisfactory conclusion: exceptionally good sound. Others helped him refine his concept, and a population of builders provided further (and significant) refinement with a long history of careful selection of superior circuit components. Then the MyRef was further refined by miniaturizing the circuit with use of many SMD components and some important power supply circuitry in the Fremen edition. The result was additional sonic improvement. Mr. Penasa is no longer available here, but Dario (Fremen) and the community provide a lot of support.
The Mod86 was designed by a competent technician whose goal was an amplifier with all the superb features and decent through-hole components that provide the best measurements. He and many other builders claim it also sounds very good. He provides excellent technical support in the forum.
My impression of the two is: the MyRef sounds quite a bit like a typical tube amp, but without any noise and virtually no heat, and with accurate, natural tonality and realistic spatial qualities. The quality of the sound produced is somewhat dependent on the quality of parts used (especially a specific few), but it sounds very good even with modestly priced parts. I have directly compared different versions to very expensive commercial equipment (multiple thousands in cost) and found it superior in most of the important parameters.
What I get from reading about the Mod86 is that it is a remarkably accurate and detailed amp with amazingly low measured noise and distortion. The designer has stated that his original parts selection is already optimized. I believe that he is confident that a part which measures good will sound good, and that subjective impressions are relatively unimportant. I am not aware of any experimentation with different parts. You might need to read the threads to learn that.
You don't seem interested in cost, but the regularly available Mod86 boards are considerably more expensive, and require a separate PS board, but the total cost is moderated by use of "standard" parts. I imagine the MyRef, produced inexpensively in batches in a group buy, could be built with some very high quality parts for the same total cost, and at much lower cost with adequate parts. The cost of enclosures, transformers, connectors is usually more than either amp.
Peace,
Tom E
The MyRef was designed and freely provided by Mauro Penasa, whose goal was to produce a better sounding chip amplifier. He began with a basic circuit concept and proceeded to fine tune the design until he reached what he considered a satisfactory conclusion: exceptionally good sound. Others helped him refine his concept, and a population of builders provided further (and significant) refinement with a long history of careful selection of superior circuit components. Then the MyRef was further refined by miniaturizing the circuit with use of many SMD components and some important power supply circuitry in the Fremen edition. The result was additional sonic improvement. Mr. Penasa is no longer available here, but Dario (Fremen) and the community provide a lot of support.
The Mod86 was designed by a competent technician whose goal was an amplifier with all the superb features and decent through-hole components that provide the best measurements. He and many other builders claim it also sounds very good. He provides excellent technical support in the forum.
My impression of the two is: the MyRef sounds quite a bit like a typical tube amp, but without any noise and virtually no heat, and with accurate, natural tonality and realistic spatial qualities. The quality of the sound produced is somewhat dependent on the quality of parts used (especially a specific few), but it sounds very good even with modestly priced parts. I have directly compared different versions to very expensive commercial equipment (multiple thousands in cost) and found it superior in most of the important parameters.
What I get from reading about the Mod86 is that it is a remarkably accurate and detailed amp with amazingly low measured noise and distortion. The designer has stated that his original parts selection is already optimized. I believe that he is confident that a part which measures good will sound good, and that subjective impressions are relatively unimportant. I am not aware of any experimentation with different parts. You might need to read the threads to learn that.
You don't seem interested in cost, but the regularly available Mod86 boards are considerably more expensive, and require a separate PS board, but the total cost is moderated by use of "standard" parts. I imagine the MyRef, produced inexpensively in batches in a group buy, could be built with some very high quality parts for the same total cost, and at much lower cost with adequate parts. The cost of enclosures, transformers, connectors is usually more than either amp.
Peace,
Tom E
THAT didn't take much of an argument. I think you already had your decision made.
Please let us know how good the "science" sounds.
^ I think Tom might take exception to being called a "technician", seeing as he's a senior design engineer at TI. 
I own neither circuit, and agree that SQ is an ephemeral and wildly uncontrolled subjective thing. For all we know, proper implementations of *both* these circuits may be indistinguishable in blinded tests. I don't know.
So I'd recommend looking at it from a different perspective: which system will you get up and running the quickest and with the least pain? Even if the Mod86 has a notable price premium (and agree that all the other essentials will largely swamp out the cost differences), does it build up easier/more reliably? Or does the myRef win on both those accounts?
Again, I don't know.
I do know that a stalled-out project is the worst of the 3 options.
I own neither circuit, and agree that SQ is an ephemeral and wildly uncontrolled subjective thing. For all we know, proper implementations of *both* these circuits may be indistinguishable in blinded tests. I don't know.
So I'd recommend looking at it from a different perspective: which system will you get up and running the quickest and with the least pain? Even if the Mod86 has a notable price premium (and agree that all the other essentials will largely swamp out the cost differences), does it build up easier/more reliably? Or does the myRef win on both those accounts?
Again, I don't know.
I do know that a stalled-out project is the worst of the 3 options.
Madisonears
Well between the opening post and the first reply I did some more research and that was what my head was telling me. However I do thank you for your detailed post and suffice to say it has swung the balance back a bit. So I'm back to undecided at present. I have to say there is a bit of a subjectivist vs objectivist subtext going on here. And "competent" is a bit of a back handed compliment!
Well between the opening post and the first reply I did some more research and that was what my head was telling me. However I do thank you for your detailed post and suffice to say it has swung the balance back a bit. So I'm back to undecided at present. I have to say there is a bit of a subjectivist vs objectivist subtext going on here. And "competent" is a bit of a back handed compliment!
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^ I think Tom might take exception to being called a "technician", seeing as he's a senior design engineer at TI.
I own neither circuit, and agree that SQ is an ephemeral and wildly uncontrolled subjective thing. For all we know, proper implementations of *both* these circuits may be indistinguishable in blinded tests. I don't know.
So I'd recommend looking at it from a different perspective: which system will you get up and running the quickest and with the least pain? Even if the Mod86 has a notable price premium (and agree that all the other essentials will largely swamp out the cost differences), does it build up easier/more reliably? Or does the myRef win on both those accounts?
Again, I don't know.
I do know that a stalled-out project is the worst of the 3 options.
Yes fair points and one of the things that attracted me to the Modulus is the build documentation is said to be unusually good and that you get great support from TomC. I have Ncore 400 mono-blocks and like the Modulus they measure amazingly well. They also sound amazing. ( the new amp is for an active system).
My apologies to Tom. I remembered he is some sort of engineer so I used a term I thought would describe that unambiguously. I am sure he's more than competent in his field, and he has made a very nice project available here, but that does not necessarily mean he is more than a competent amplifier designer. I don't mean to insult anyone's capabilities.
There are more than a few audio products that were designed by engineers, who meant well and could achieve outstanding measured parameters, but don't always sound the best. There, that got the old subjective/objective subtext right out in the open. I get wary whenever someone claims circuit components don't matter. If you believe that distortion and noise measurements tell the whole story, jump right in. There have been plenty of Mod86 builders who are totally satisfied with their completed project, but there are far more MyRef builders, many who are amazed at the sound they get.
Again, I really hope someone can answer the original question after hearing both amps. My mind is open. I was already tempted to pull the trigger when I first read about the newer design. If there is a 3886 amp that sounds better than the MyRef, I'd like to build it. I've owned quite a few commercial amps and heard it compared to even more. Only a few are better at every aspect of sound.
In terms of complexity and difficulty, the Mod86 might be easier for those who are not comfortable with SMD. As an old veteran of building through-hole equipment, I was a bit intimidated by SMD at first. It's really quite easy to get excellent results with just a bit of practice, no more difficult than mastering through-hole soldering initially. If they are built correctly, both amps should work right from the first with no problems. There are probably failures of both. Of the ten or so MyRef's I have built, one did not work and I still don't know why. I just pulled all the useful parts and put them into another board and that one worked.
Tough decision. I'm glad you're giving it more thought. I'd like to know how it turns out.
Peace,
Tom E
There are more than a few audio products that were designed by engineers, who meant well and could achieve outstanding measured parameters, but don't always sound the best. There, that got the old subjective/objective subtext right out in the open. I get wary whenever someone claims circuit components don't matter. If you believe that distortion and noise measurements tell the whole story, jump right in. There have been plenty of Mod86 builders who are totally satisfied with their completed project, but there are far more MyRef builders, many who are amazed at the sound they get.
Again, I really hope someone can answer the original question after hearing both amps. My mind is open. I was already tempted to pull the trigger when I first read about the newer design. If there is a 3886 amp that sounds better than the MyRef, I'd like to build it. I've owned quite a few commercial amps and heard it compared to even more. Only a few are better at every aspect of sound.
In terms of complexity and difficulty, the Mod86 might be easier for those who are not comfortable with SMD. As an old veteran of building through-hole equipment, I was a bit intimidated by SMD at first. It's really quite easy to get excellent results with just a bit of practice, no more difficult than mastering through-hole soldering initially. If they are built correctly, both amps should work right from the first with no problems. There are probably failures of both. Of the ten or so MyRef's I have built, one did not work and I still don't know why. I just pulled all the useful parts and put them into another board and that one worked.
Tough decision. I'm glad you're giving it more thought. I'd like to know how it turns out.
Peace,
Tom E
Tom's day job is designing IC amplifiers and anything up to GHz frequencies. He is used to working 'DC to daylight' in terms of bandwidth, so safe to say knows more about amplifier design than many here.
If you believe that changing a cap here or resistor there will improve the sound then Mod-86 is not for you and no one will think the less of you for that. It is optimised in that distortion is lowever than the performance of the oscillator in the AP tester used. Not many would spend $30k to upgrade their test set just to get the real numbers.
But in this hobby there is choice, and choice is good
Disclaimer: I have 4 mod boards ready for an active upgrade on my speakers that has been malingering for the last 9 months. I have not heard them yet and based my buying decision entirely on wanting reference amplification that was the best measured performance I could afford.
Akitika GT-101 by Dan Joffe
Other option is the Akitika GT-101 by Dan Joffe.
-> http://www.akitika.com/GT101.html
You must read:
-> GT-101 Measurements
-> http://www.akitika.com/documents/AssemblyManualGT101rev1p41.pdf
and, more important to me (It is what is missing to the Mod86 and Parallel86, they have the best specs but... ):
-> Testimonials
Other option is the Akitika GT-101 by Dan Joffe.
-> http://www.akitika.com/GT101.html
You must read:
-> GT-101 Measurements
-> http://www.akitika.com/documents/AssemblyManualGT101rev1p41.pdf
and, more important to me (It is what is missing to the Mod86 and Parallel86, they have the best specs but... ):
-> Testimonials
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Yes you have, here :
Modulus-86 Rev. 2.0: Composite amplifier achieving 0.000067 % THD.
or :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/267802-modulus-86-build-thread.html
A french guy build M86 and compare it with Mark Levinston ML29..
He said :
ML29 is for sale
Phil.
Possibly because the sort of people who base purchasing decisions on superlative measured performance have better things to do that post reams of BS on 'air' and 'palpable' on the internet?
Those who do like to post impressions have built something else and are involved in cap shootouts on head-fi now. like the poor sap who was posting here yesterday having been persuaded to spend $900 on duelund coupling caps for his headphone amp.
Those who do like to post impressions have built something else and are involved in cap shootouts on head-fi now. like the poor sap who was posting here yesterday having been persuaded to spend $900 on duelund coupling caps for his headphone amp.
I posted a review my Mod-86s when it was built, and later I posted a list of links to other subjective comments about Mod-86. There have been many more comments about its sound since then.
Mod86 is a very detailed, very low distortion amp. This is great for good recordings and for acoustic instruments where the tonal texture is an important part of the music. Classical chamber music, solo guitar, bluegrass, jazz vocal combo, etc. Mod86 really brings the tone to life, very incisive. Easy to "get" where the artist is coming from.
The low distortion can cut both ways though, it reveals the ugly as boldly as the beautiful. Classical fans will appreciate this, because some music is meant to be ugly and polishing is the last thing you want, but that's what most amps do because they want to sell some. But low res streaming music services will sound digital, you will hear all the mic punches, edits, and effects on your modern pop recordings and that can be distracting of you're a melody/lyrics/beat listener. If you listen to tube guitar amp tone and subtle vocal inflections then Mod will please.
I use a relatively colorless balanced tube preamp before Mod-86. It doesn't harm the delicate overtones of acoustic instruments, but it makes the music sound bigger.
I also use a DIY integrated discreet SS pp amp, similar power but warmer for radio and low res streaming pop and jazz. When I sit down for serious listening to vinyl or CDs then the Mod86s are much more satisfying.
Mod86 is a very detailed, very low distortion amp. This is great for good recordings and for acoustic instruments where the tonal texture is an important part of the music. Classical chamber music, solo guitar, bluegrass, jazz vocal combo, etc. Mod86 really brings the tone to life, very incisive. Easy to "get" where the artist is coming from.
The low distortion can cut both ways though, it reveals the ugly as boldly as the beautiful. Classical fans will appreciate this, because some music is meant to be ugly and polishing is the last thing you want, but that's what most amps do because they want to sell some. But low res streaming music services will sound digital, you will hear all the mic punches, edits, and effects on your modern pop recordings and that can be distracting of you're a melody/lyrics/beat listener. If you listen to tube guitar amp tone and subtle vocal inflections then Mod will please.
I use a relatively colorless balanced tube preamp before Mod-86. It doesn't harm the delicate overtones of acoustic instruments, but it makes the music sound bigger.
I also use a DIY integrated discreet SS pp amp, similar power but warmer for radio and low res streaming pop and jazz. When I sit down for serious listening to vinyl or CDs then the Mod86s are much more satisfying.
Orchestal music
I am about to solve 100% all my problems with the dirty mains and then I will decide what type of amplifier I want to buy / build / order. Akitika GT-101 is one of my elections (and Dan Joffe has been very patient with me, answering all my technical questions) but the slew rate...
So I ask again: How about the sound these chipamps with orchestral masses?
For me is very important orchestral music. I do not remember reading any comment on how it sounds with different implementations of these chipamps (LM3886 / LM4780), which have a slew rate of about 13-15 V / microsecond.
I am about to solve 100% all my problems with the dirty mains and then I will decide what type of amplifier I want to buy / build / order. Akitika GT-101 is one of my elections (and Dan Joffe has been very patient with me, answering all my technical questions) but the slew rate...
So I ask again: How about the sound these chipamps with orchestral masses?
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