Dynamic load-related noise, and significant chemical noise from the process going on inside the battery.
Just try looking with a scope - the output is horrible under load. The noise lasts long beyond the initial stimulus too, as the reaction carries on.
Bandwidth is very narrow.
Impedance from the data sheets - usually 10's of milliohms, much higher than a well-designed conventional supply, leading to some of the noise problems above...
Couple the above with the impracticality of battery PSU's (which usually need mains power somewhere for charging) I fail to understand the appeal. When I listen, I feel the appeal drops further
Andy.
Noise
I noted the Mark-Levinson JC1-DC cartidge preamplifier had some sort of stabilisation.(battery powered )
The JC1-AC (AC-powered) had similar circuit and sounded a lot better but was plagued by some hum problems.
Hi Andy, Very interesting observation!ALW said:
Dynamic load-related noise, and significant chemical noise from the process going on inside the battery.
Just try looking with a scope - the output is horrible under load. The noise lasts long beyond the initial stimulus too, as the reaction carries on.
Bandwidth is very narrow.
Impedance from the data sheets - usually 10's of milliohms, much higher than a well-designed conventional supply, leading to some of the noise problems above...
Couple the above with the impracticality of battery PSU's (which usually need mains power somewhere for charging) I fail to understand the appeal. When I listen, I feel the appeal drops further
Andy.
I noted the Mark-Levinson JC1-DC cartidge preamplifier had some sort of stabilisation.(battery powered )
The JC1-AC (AC-powered) had similar circuit and sounded a lot better but was plagued by some hum problems.
ALW said:
I guess it's safe to assume you wouldn't touch a tube amp with a 10-foot pole.
Fortuantely, I'm not an oscilloscope. And the only thing that matters to me is the end result.
But in any case, the noise is quite benign, being random in nature as opposed to the periodic nature of power supply ripple and its assocated harmonics. Also, the bulk of the energy is in the low frequency range and falls off at a rate greater than 1/f. It's effectively eliminated from the output by virtue of the power supply rejection of the circuit.
You said that already.
I asked you what the bandwidth is.
I haven't found the noise to be any problem. Perhaps it's only a problem to those looking at it on an oscilloscope.
Well, battery supplies can be rather impractical if you're using speakers that are inefficient and require large amounts of power to achieve sufficient output levels. But this doesn't describe all loudspeakers.
And I could care less if the mains were used for charging. I just don't want it powering my amps.
When I listen, I feel the appeal drops further
Listening is where I find the most appeal. It's the only thing that matters for me. Again, I'm not an oscilloscope.
se
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Battery sound?
Why do you write your replies within the quote box? The whole point of the quote box is to separate quotes from responses to those quotes.
And when I reply to your message, the system strips out everything in the quote boxes so I have to go keep scrolling down to your post and copy/paste your responses in here.
When the amp isn't being called upon to reproduce anything at 100kHz. If the amp's not drawing current at those frequencies, then the ESR at those frequencies isn't going to have any relevance.
In which case the amp will be drawing current at those frequencies and now we're into a completely different context than originally.
It can be more of a problem than ESR because it's ESL which causes the cap's impedance to start rising at high frequencies. Depending on the cap, ESL can begin to overtake ESR well in the audio band.
And my point is that if you're not drawing current at 100kHz, the ESR of the cap at 100kHz isn't going to matter to the amplifier.
I have. But currently I prefer the 22uF OS-CONS that I've been using.
Why do you write your replies within the quote box? The whole point of the quote box is to separate quotes from responses to those quotes.
And when I reply to your message, the system strips out everything in the quote boxes so I have to go keep scrolling down to your post and copy/paste your responses in here.
When the amp isn't being called upon to reproduce anything at 100kHz. If the amp's not drawing current at those frequencies, then the ESR at those frequencies isn't going to have any relevance.
In which case the amp will be drawing current at those frequencies and now we're into a completely different context than originally.
It can be more of a problem than ESR because it's ESL which causes the cap's impedance to start rising at high frequencies. Depending on the cap, ESL can begin to overtake ESR well in the audio band.
And my point is that if you're not drawing current at 100kHz, the ESR of the cap at 100kHz isn't going to matter to the amplifier.
I have. But currently I prefer the 22uF OS-CONS that I've been using.
Excited
Sorry missed that one - it matters not one jot what the bandwidth is specifically, as in the case of batteries it's so spectacularly low, relative to the audio band, that's the dominant factor.
In fact it's also difficult to measure, since the other appaling performance factors of the battery get in the way and dominate once current is drawn. Your conclusions re: the 1/f status of the noise profile is unfortunately not true except for the steady state case - I have some FFT plots somewhere should you be interested.
I cannot, unfortunately, tell you the real reason why battery supplies are totally unsuitable for audio use, due to some current work I'm doing - but all will become clear in the fullness of time.
Since though I have tried all sorts of battery supplies and all manner of linear ones my experiences are based solely on the sonic effects, not the measured ones.
What topologies have you compared to battery PSU's?
What do you listen for as an improvement?
The one thing I can assure you is that, apart from basic functional measurements, I listen first, then measure later in order to try an analyse what I'm hearing, in order to be able to progress the designs further.
In the interests of this shared community, where I thought the whole idea was to pass on experience to others so that we can all learn something, I was trying to get across the fact that to my ears, and everyone else to whom I've demonstrated the effects, battery PSU's suck big time, compared to a less costly, far quieter, wider bandwidth, easier to use, linear PSU. Not dogma, just an experience.
If you like them, that's no problem to me either, but as Iasked above, what have you compared them to - that might tell us a lot about why you didn't like the mains-based approach.
What's important to you in an audio supply?
Yours in audio harmony,
Andy.
Sorry missed that one - it matters not one jot what the bandwidth is specifically, as in the case of batteries it's so spectacularly low, relative to the audio band, that's the dominant factor.
In fact it's also difficult to measure, since the other appaling performance factors of the battery get in the way and dominate once current is drawn. Your conclusions re: the 1/f status of the noise profile is unfortunately not true except for the steady state case - I have some FFT plots somewhere should you be interested.
I cannot, unfortunately, tell you the real reason why battery supplies are totally unsuitable for audio use, due to some current work I'm doing - but all will become clear in the fullness of time.
Since though I have tried all sorts of battery supplies and all manner of linear ones my experiences are based solely on the sonic effects, not the measured ones.
What topologies have you compared to battery PSU's?
What do you listen for as an improvement?
The one thing I can assure you is that, apart from basic functional measurements, I listen first, then measure later in order to try an analyse what I'm hearing, in order to be able to progress the designs further.
In the interests of this shared community, where I thought the whole idea was to pass on experience to others so that we can all learn something, I was trying to get across the fact that to my ears, and everyone else to whom I've demonstrated the effects, battery PSU's suck big time, compared to a less costly, far quieter, wider bandwidth, easier to use, linear PSU. Not dogma, just an experience.
If you like them, that's no problem to me either, but as Iasked above, what have you compared them to - that might tell us a lot about why you didn't like the mains-based approach.
What's important to you in an audio supply?
Yours in audio harmony,
Andy.
Re: Excited
Wow. Can't even make it out to 20kHz, huh?
Yes, let's see those FFT plots.
Obviously battery supplies are not totally unsuitable for audio use as many are in fact using them.
Sounds like you've got some ulterior motives going here.
"Sonic effects" are in the mind of the beholder. Or are you attempting to assert your subjective preferences as somehow being inherently superior those of others?
Cap input (both regulated and unregulated), choke regulated as well as PWM switching supplies back when I was dabbling in car audio.
I don't listen for anything in particular. I just go by the gestalt experience.
How exactly do you go about determining that your subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audible stimulus? Or are you working from the erroneous assumption that your subjective perceptions are always the unerring result of some actual phyiscal reality produced by the equipment?
Sharing one's experiences are fine. To denegrate the experiences of others, not so fine. At least with respect to subjective issues.
What exactly would it tell us?
The same thing that's important to me in all the rest of the system. The enjoyment of music.
se
ALW said:
Wow. Can't even make it out to 20kHz, huh?
Yes, let's see those FFT plots.
Obviously battery supplies are not totally unsuitable for audio use as many are in fact using them.
Sounds like you've got some ulterior motives going here.
"Sonic effects" are in the mind of the beholder. Or are you attempting to assert your subjective preferences as somehow being inherently superior those of others?
Cap input (both regulated and unregulated), choke regulated as well as PWM switching supplies back when I was dabbling in car audio.
I don't listen for anything in particular. I just go by the gestalt experience.
How exactly do you go about determining that your subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audible stimulus? Or are you working from the erroneous assumption that your subjective perceptions are always the unerring result of some actual phyiscal reality produced by the equipment?
Sharing one's experiences are fine. To denegrate the experiences of others, not so fine. At least with respect to subjective issues.
What exactly would it tell us?
The same thing that's important to me in all the rest of the system. The enjoyment of music.
se
confused
Hi Guys
since my english is not the best i dont understand all the religious opinions about if battery psu is better than conventional psu.
the only thing i asked for is if anybody has experienced with a amp, connected to a battery psu - compared to a normal psu.
DOES IT SOUND DIFFERENT - BETTER, BADER?
I my opinion the things does not sound as what i belive it should sound. It sounds as it sounds. And if an amp with Battery psu sounds better - it sounds better. And if not - i can save my money.
I hoped in this comunity to get information about this - and no religious discussions about whats better.
i think its better i make my own experiences. And when someone askes in future about my experiences with car batteries i tell him something about religion.
Ralf
Hi Guys
since my english is not the best i dont understand all the religious opinions about if battery psu is better than conventional psu.
the only thing i asked for is if anybody has experienced with a amp, connected to a battery psu - compared to a normal psu.
DOES IT SOUND DIFFERENT - BETTER, BADER?
I my opinion the things does not sound as what i belive it should sound. It sounds as it sounds. And if an amp with Battery psu sounds better - it sounds better. And if not - i can save my money.
I hoped in this comunity to get information about this - and no religious discussions about whats better.
i think its better i make my own experiences. And when someone askes in future about my experiences with car batteries i tell him something about religion.
Ralf
It's a challenge here sometimes - you openly denounce measurement in your initial responses, but then are unable to offer any information with regard to what you listen for when assessing an improvement.
Whilst enjoyment of music is of course the over-riding goal, music is made from many elements, and the ability to define what elements are improved by various approaches is important, in that things that you listen for may be totally irrelevant to me. From my experience, and that of many others, long-term listening pleasure only comes from certain fundamental musical elements being handled correctly.
I'm not going to go into further detailed responses here, since your own replies are as dogmatic as you make mine out to be.
In terms of the things that I consider fundamentally important to engaging me in long term listening (hence the equipment, rather than the listener can be taken as the sole source of variation), I find that the ability to follow the fundamental tune of the music, along with it's rythm and timing elements is the major factor for me. A significant proportion of HiFi (expensive HiFi) cannot handle these basic musical elements correctly.
Imaging and other hi-fi froth is irrelevant to me, I can think of nothing less important than where someone is sitting in terms of my enjoyment of a piece of music.
In those respects, battery power supplies have always resulted in poorly controlled bass, pitch inaccuracy and disasterous rythm and timing performance. They obscure subtle musical clues about how a band works together, leaving me cold and un-interested in the result, compared to almost any competent linear supply I've used.
Your experience may differ.
Andy.
P.S. I'll dig out the FFT plots at the weekend and post them.
Whilst enjoyment of music is of course the over-riding goal, music is made from many elements, and the ability to define what elements are improved by various approaches is important, in that things that you listen for may be totally irrelevant to me. From my experience, and that of many others, long-term listening pleasure only comes from certain fundamental musical elements being handled correctly.
I'm not going to go into further detailed responses here, since your own replies are as dogmatic as you make mine out to be.
In terms of the things that I consider fundamentally important to engaging me in long term listening (hence the equipment, rather than the listener can be taken as the sole source of variation), I find that the ability to follow the fundamental tune of the music, along with it's rythm and timing elements is the major factor for me. A significant proportion of HiFi (expensive HiFi) cannot handle these basic musical elements correctly.
Imaging and other hi-fi froth is irrelevant to me, I can think of nothing less important than where someone is sitting in terms of my enjoyment of a piece of music.
In those respects, battery power supplies have always resulted in poorly controlled bass, pitch inaccuracy and disasterous rythm and timing performance. They obscure subtle musical clues about how a band works together, leaving me cold and un-interested in the result, compared to almost any competent linear supply I've used.
Your experience may differ.
Andy.
P.S. I'll dig out the FFT plots at the weekend and post them.
Re: confused
The discussion between ALW and myself had nothing to do with religion.
We humans are subjective beings and have many different subjective tastes and preferences. Some prefer Stratocasters, some prefer Les Pauls. Some prefer jazz while others prefer classical.
There are not right or wrong answers when it comes to subjective tastes and preferences. There is nothing to judge and nothing to argue because subjective tastes and preferences are only meaningful to the individual.
To some such as myself, I prefer batteries. To others such as ALW, they prefer AC supplies.
Again, no right or wrong. No religion. Just different subjective tastes and preferences.
But there is no singular answer to your question.
The only "information" you can get with regard to subjective tastes and preferences is little more than an opinion poll. A popularity contest. None of which has any inherent meaning to YOU.
Actually, you should. That's ultimately the ONLY way you'll be able to determine for yourself what YOU prefer.
If you just take a poll and go with whatever the status quo says, all you've learned is what the status quo prefers. You may be happy with going with what the status quo prefers, but it's entirely possible that you may in the end prefer what the minority prefers. But you can never truly know that until you've tried both and decided what YOU prefer.
All you can tell them is your experience. Which, coming full circle now, cannot tell them what their experience and ultimate preference will be.
It seems to me that basing one's decisions on opinion polls is more akin to religion. It requires a certain blind faith that your experience will be the same as the status quo's.
se
ralf said:
The discussion between ALW and myself had nothing to do with religion.
We humans are subjective beings and have many different subjective tastes and preferences. Some prefer Stratocasters, some prefer Les Pauls. Some prefer jazz while others prefer classical.
There are not right or wrong answers when it comes to subjective tastes and preferences. There is nothing to judge and nothing to argue because subjective tastes and preferences are only meaningful to the individual.
To some such as myself, I prefer batteries. To others such as ALW, they prefer AC supplies.
Again, no right or wrong. No religion. Just different subjective tastes and preferences.
But there is no singular answer to your question.
The only "information" you can get with regard to subjective tastes and preferences is little more than an opinion poll. A popularity contest. None of which has any inherent meaning to YOU.
Actually, you should. That's ultimately the ONLY way you'll be able to determine for yourself what YOU prefer.
If you just take a poll and go with whatever the status quo says, all you've learned is what the status quo prefers. You may be happy with going with what the status quo prefers, but it's entirely possible that you may in the end prefer what the minority prefers. But you can never truly know that until you've tried both and decided what YOU prefer.
All you can tell them is your experience. Which, coming full circle now, cannot tell them what their experience and ultimate preference will be.
It seems to me that basing one's decisions on opinion polls is more akin to religion. It requires a certain blind faith that your experience will be the same as the status quo's.
se
Ralf
I'd have done things slightly differently
I'd configure the transformer for a centre-tap, using that as my 0V reference, and use a single bridge rectifier to produce the + and - rails, and used conventional pos and neg regulators, although it may be possible to implement your idea of using pos reg's using this scheme too, which may have benefits in terms of matching between the pos and neg rails.
C1 / C2 are not acting as snubbers, but are, in effect, reducing the self-resonant frequency of the transformer, possibly making the effect of the oscillation more audible, rather than less.
3x15,000 uF (c3-C8) is in my experience way too large for a 300VA transformer - I'd not go above 10,000u - a single 15,000 absolute tops. The conduction angle of the diodes will be very narrow, and increase noise, not reduce it. Additionally it places greater stress on the transformer / bridge rec due to I2R losses.
Bypassing can work well though, if done with care.
There are noise / ripple benefits to increasing C9 / C10, at the expense of start-up time, and you have to watch ESR of the caps at the regulator o/p's - too high a Q (particularly with the additional film cap) can give rise to instability / or simply worse transient performance.
What the schematic does not convey is the criticality of the wiring - the output MUST be taken from the bottom of VR1 / VR2 and the +ve regulator o/p, and the connection of components around the reg is equally important.
For example R3, R4 should connect as close as possibly to the regulator o/p pins - ideally star-wired (i.e. not sharing a current path with the output current from the reg..
Unless you need adjustment it would be better to eliminate VR1 / 2 and use fixed components.
A few thoughts, anyway
Andy.
I'd have done things slightly differently
I'd configure the transformer for a centre-tap, using that as my 0V reference, and use a single bridge rectifier to produce the + and - rails, and used conventional pos and neg regulators, although it may be possible to implement your idea of using pos reg's using this scheme too, which may have benefits in terms of matching between the pos and neg rails.
C1 / C2 are not acting as snubbers, but are, in effect, reducing the self-resonant frequency of the transformer, possibly making the effect of the oscillation more audible, rather than less.
3x15,000 uF (c3-C8) is in my experience way too large for a 300VA transformer - I'd not go above 10,000u - a single 15,000 absolute tops. The conduction angle of the diodes will be very narrow, and increase noise, not reduce it. Additionally it places greater stress on the transformer / bridge rec due to I2R losses.
Bypassing can work well though, if done with care.
There are noise / ripple benefits to increasing C9 / C10, at the expense of start-up time, and you have to watch ESR of the caps at the regulator o/p's - too high a Q (particularly with the additional film cap) can give rise to instability / or simply worse transient performance.
What the schematic does not convey is the criticality of the wiring - the output MUST be taken from the bottom of VR1 / VR2 and the +ve regulator o/p, and the connection of components around the reg is equally important.
For example R3, R4 should connect as close as possibly to the regulator o/p pins - ideally star-wired (i.e. not sharing a current path with the output current from the reg..
Unless you need adjustment it would be better to eliminate VR1 / 2 and use fixed components.
A few thoughts, anyway
Andy.
battery rocks
i've tried the following setup a couple years ago, it's long term listening, approx 25 hours a week for 1 yrs++
power opamp(don't check which type) + battery power(12V 70Ah? Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery ),
definitely better than mains power.
more musical, much cleaner, more defined, lack of "mains" akwardness (caused by the 50/60 hz line frequency +transformer noise+rectifier noise+capacitor noise+mains layout??).
Less harshness/shrillness, much beter timing.
+ killer bass.
I love battery power
i've tried the following setup a couple years ago, it's long term listening, approx 25 hours a week for 1 yrs++
power opamp(don't check which type) + battery power(12V 70Ah? Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery ),
definitely better than mains power.
more musical, much cleaner, more defined, lack of "mains" akwardness (caused by the 50/60 hz line frequency +transformer noise+rectifier noise+capacitor noise+mains layout??).
Less harshness/shrillness, much beter timing.
+ killer bass.
I love battery power
Re: battery rocks
thanks for your posting,
how did you charge the batteries?
Ralf
Hartono said:
i've tried the following setup a couple years ago, it's long term listening, approx 25 hours a week for 1 yrs++
power opamp(don't check which type) + battery power(12V 70Ah? Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery ),
definitely better than mains power.
more musical, much cleaner, more defined, lack of "mains" akwardness (caused by the 50/60 hz line frequency +transformer noise+rectifier noise+capacitor noise+mains layout??).
Less harshness/shrillness, much beter timing.
+ killer bass.
I love battery power
thanks for your posting,
how did you charge the batteries?
Ralf
This thread is getting truly fascinating. I can see myself siding with both ALW or with SE on the subjective effects of using batteries. Batteries certainly sound different to mains derived power but also different depending on what type of battery, what capacity and in what application. I have always liked battery power in low level MC preamps. Nothing derived from the mains could compare to the cleanness and immediacy of good NiCd and NiMH batteries. They certainly do wonders for spaciosness, air and soundstaging. Somehow less convincing is the effect on PRAT and the general timbral balance. Batteries may sound a bit thin and lacking substance. Lead acid batteries otoh have never sounded good to me, similarly to excessive capacitance in ps they can really destroy timing and exhibit a very strange tonal balance. Of course, similarly to elcos this may largely be due to the type of batteries used. A different brand may well sound very differently. Would it be fair to compare the 'Black Gates' of batteries to the mundane equivalent of a generic cap?
cheers
peter
cheers
peter
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