I havenoticed in the car audio world, that everyone says to spend MORE on your amplifer than speakers, and with people spending $400 or MORE on a pair of 6inch splits, how can they justify this? to me, and amplifier is an amplifier.
what can be so different between a $200 2X150watt amp, and a $600 2X100watt amp or whatever?? and yet the cheaper amp has always been considered "lower quality" WHY!?!?!? I'm sure the build quality is the same... amplifier PCB layout isn't THAT critical.. AND YOUR IN A CAR FOR FRIKS SAKE!!!!
what can be so different between a $200 2X150watt amp, and a $600 2X100watt amp or whatever?? and yet the cheaper amp has always been considered "lower quality" WHY!?!?!? I'm sure the build quality is the same... amplifier PCB layout isn't THAT critical.. AND YOUR IN A CAR FOR FRIKS SAKE!!!!
This all depends on how good you want to go. I have never heard a rule that says you should pay more for your amp then your speakers. I have heard of using good quality amps with good quality amps. It is true that at some point amps of a certin level have different qualities that make it more of a personal preference then anything. If you think that all amps sound the same in the car environment then you are very mistaken. If you don't belive me take a cheap amp (like a pyramid) and listen to it and then listen to a quality amp (McIntosh,Tru,Brax,JL,Audison). Even with cheap speakers you will hear a huge difference.
Don't forget to take into account that the amout of power an amp makes has nothing to do with how it sounds. You should also remember that poor car audio companies over rate their equipments power rating.
Don't forget to take into account that the amout of power an amp makes has nothing to do with how it sounds. You should also remember that poor car audio companies over rate their equipments power rating.
alright, heres the deal...
I can't justify spending $600 on a car amp....
whats wrong with this one?
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVi...d2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=
everyone says its good bang for buck, but that its not good quality. How does that work? meh, oh well. would I notice this POOR QUALITY amp if I ran Peerless speakers off it?
I can't justify spending $600 on a car amp....
whats wrong with this one?
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVi...d2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=
everyone says its good bang for buck, but that its not good quality. How does that work? meh, oh well. would I notice this POOR QUALITY amp if I ran Peerless speakers off it?
There is nothing wrong with this amplifier, its seems to be very very good value for money and very powerful.
Typical incar speaker have very poor sensitivity unlike home speakers that are generally an easy load.
one reason is in a car the typical speakers have no real air load and are virtually I/B in doors and rear shelfs, so the dampers are very heavy cotton to provide all the damping.
How told you to spend more on an amplifier? a sales person maybe, always follow your own gut.
Typical incar speaker have very poor sensitivity unlike home speakers that are generally an easy load.
one reason is in a car the typical speakers have no real air load and are virtually I/B in doors and rear shelfs, so the dampers are very heavy cotton to provide all the damping.
How told you to spend more on an amplifier? a sales person maybe, always follow your own gut.
I suggest you study car audio more. There is a lot of information and even more information. I think you could do a whole hell of a lot better for $300. Take a look at JL audio e series. Don't forget that there are many factors in car audio. Speaker placement, passive or active componant setups, head unit, amps, subs, enclosure design, EQ and more. Rather then ask about prices you might find better answers if you ask what you should shop for that will help fit your needs.
There are many reasons to get a good car amp - problem is that they are expensive.
You get what you pay for that goes for everything these days!
MB Quart has some nice amps, as does TRU Technology and a few others. Yes you will pay out the nose but if you are building a real car audio system it will be worth it - same goes for home hi-fi.
Lower quality includes:
1. Crappy crossovers, using op-amps barely better than say the venerable 741, and cheap chinese imitations at that! They skimp on design and you loose out on adjustability and when the sound passes through this area it somes out total junk! Junk pots that don't quite match up, I've seen ceramic caps used for value-critical applications, overall lousy design and lack of thought.
2. Power supplies are often vastly underdone unregulated things, usually a minimalist design based on the chinese schematics floating around for the TL494. Running at low frequency of 25-50K they have no chance of delivering voltage with any sort of real load. Capacitance on the rails is usually way below normal standards for SMPS and audio power supplies in general. This is where PCB layout is critical - high currents and high frequency - bad combo for a POS design.
3. The audio power amp portions are usually totally unacceptable by any means for anything more than cheap imported boomboxes. As far as getting any good sound out of them, good luck! They cut corners to make things cheap and the sound is worthless.
4. Assembly is often poor quality as most units are made in Korea or China. PCB fabrication is also an issue with the over-seas stuff, when they need repaired (and they will!) pads and thru-holes will often lift of the substrate even when considerable care is taken to prevent such damage.
In an actual listening test there is a night-day difference between a good amp and a bad one. Yes you will notice a big difference even with cheaper speakers, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link!
-Matt
You get what you pay for that goes for everything these days!
MB Quart has some nice amps, as does TRU Technology and a few others. Yes you will pay out the nose but if you are building a real car audio system it will be worth it - same goes for home hi-fi.
Lower quality includes:
1. Crappy crossovers, using op-amps barely better than say the venerable 741, and cheap chinese imitations at that! They skimp on design and you loose out on adjustability and when the sound passes through this area it somes out total junk! Junk pots that don't quite match up, I've seen ceramic caps used for value-critical applications, overall lousy design and lack of thought.
2. Power supplies are often vastly underdone unregulated things, usually a minimalist design based on the chinese schematics floating around for the TL494. Running at low frequency of 25-50K they have no chance of delivering voltage with any sort of real load. Capacitance on the rails is usually way below normal standards for SMPS and audio power supplies in general. This is where PCB layout is critical - high currents and high frequency - bad combo for a POS design.
3. The audio power amp portions are usually totally unacceptable by any means for anything more than cheap imported boomboxes. As far as getting any good sound out of them, good luck! They cut corners to make things cheap and the sound is worthless.
4. Assembly is often poor quality as most units are made in Korea or China. PCB fabrication is also an issue with the over-seas stuff, when they need repaired (and they will!) pads and thru-holes will often lift of the substrate even when considerable care is taken to prevent such damage.
In an actual listening test there is a night-day difference between a good amp and a bad one. Yes you will notice a big difference even with cheaper speakers, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link!
-Matt
Hi Matt
You have made some valid points but I believe that quality is not cheap and cheap things don’t have quality typically.
The reason these below average amplifiers from the east are poor 90% of the time is because the Big Brands want the biggest profit and lowest cost.
If you ask anybody way up in these companies they will tell you they sell junk, but that’s what makes them money.
Is such a cut throat market now and there are not prisoners taken, its kill or be killed and when one company OEM in China and takes a chunk of the market, the next company follows at light speed.
The UK goverment has taken a UK car brand to China to ask them to save it!
What doe that say
You have made some valid points but I believe that quality is not cheap and cheap things don’t have quality typically.
The reason these below average amplifiers from the east are poor 90% of the time is because the Big Brands want the biggest profit and lowest cost.
If you ask anybody way up in these companies they will tell you they sell junk, but that’s what makes them money.
Is such a cut throat market now and there are not prisoners taken, its kill or be killed and when one company OEM in China and takes a chunk of the market, the next company follows at light speed.
The UK goverment has taken a UK car brand to China to ask them to save it!
What doe that say
I will have to agree that there is a noticible difference between amps. I will put 100$ on it that says you will be able to tell the differenc ebetween my expensive amps and chepa ones. However, if you dont have decent speakers, then you wont notice it. I noticed a difference when I switched from my PG xs series to jl's and then to the PG ti's.
you will hear much larger stage, as well as a fuller sound. Good amps will be more accurate than cheap ones. A reason that most people dont hear this is becasue a car environment is pretty much impossible to work with. The installation has to be perfect in order to have a sound coming close to home audio.
In the mechanical end of this, the higher price amps use better components, and more of them. The board layout will be cleaner, resulting in less noise. There will be better power supplies, creating more headroom (gives depth and impact). The crossover design will use better components in it, allowing for a smoother transition and usually better flexability. There are a ton of things that make them better, but I wont go into them all...
In conclusion, you WILL notice a difference. But it all matters on how the install is.
you will hear much larger stage, as well as a fuller sound. Good amps will be more accurate than cheap ones. A reason that most people dont hear this is becasue a car environment is pretty much impossible to work with. The installation has to be perfect in order to have a sound coming close to home audio.
In the mechanical end of this, the higher price amps use better components, and more of them. The board layout will be cleaner, resulting in less noise. There will be better power supplies, creating more headroom (gives depth and impact). The crossover design will use better components in it, allowing for a smoother transition and usually better flexability. There are a ton of things that make them better, but I wont go into them all...
In conclusion, you WILL notice a difference. But it all matters on how the install is.
CAR AMPS
With anything you get what you pay for! Sorry. Is there a difference you say....I agree huge!!! Cheap amps sound harsh and compressed with a closed sound stage. You must hear a real good audiophile quality system to understand the differences. Once you hear a quality system you will never go back to junk like audiobahn and the likes.
We spend so much time in our car that it does make sense to have a real quality system. You would be surpised what a good decent set of separates like Dynaudio, Focal or the older ADS would sound like with a decent amp and one good sub. Quality goes a lot farther than quantity. Amps I have tried and love:
Clestra
Helix
Sinfoni
Tru
Arc
Zapco
Linear Power\
and if you ever find one on the used market Harmon Kardon
With anything you get what you pay for! Sorry. Is there a difference you say....I agree huge!!! Cheap amps sound harsh and compressed with a closed sound stage. You must hear a real good audiophile quality system to understand the differences. Once you hear a quality system you will never go back to junk like audiobahn and the likes.
We spend so much time in our car that it does make sense to have a real quality system. You would be surpised what a good decent set of separates like Dynaudio, Focal or the older ADS would sound like with a decent amp and one good sub. Quality goes a lot farther than quantity. Amps I have tried and love:
Clestra
Helix
Sinfoni
Tru
Arc
Zapco
Linear Power\
and if you ever find one on the used market Harmon Kardon
Cheap speakers distort more than cheap amps
I find that cheap drivers distort way more than amps can.(unless they are clipping) Just look at the junk that passes for tweeters on the market today. After all how many speaker manufacturers even dare to post distortion specs for their components? Why would anyone recommend "better" amps to make up for a crappy component set? Maybe if you smoke'em and can get a free upgrade!
On the other hand really cheap amps will sound bad so you need to balance the system for your budget and best possible sound quality. Here's some ideas on how to get better sound out of "lower" quality or just cheaper older amps.
Peerless drivers (the company in Denmark?) are usually excellent for SQ on the cheap. Now you just need to find an amp that "sounds" good playing them. BTW that means hearing them in car, NOT on the display board. If the install sucks then all of this discussion is moot.
You really shouldn't need more than 30 watts for tweeters so use a separate 2 ch. amp like an adcom gfa4302. There are a couple on Ebay right now. They are a good value (compared to the newer hi-end amps) and sound great. But they are old school so if you want new amps look elsewhere. Clarity is paramount here not massive power. By using a separate tweeter amp you avoid the problems caused by a power hogging midbass "crosstalking" thru a 4 ch amps underrated 2 ch. power supply and collapsing the soundstage or blurring imaging. Because of this using two 2 ch amps will beat one 4 ch unless the 4 channel is very pricey. It just takes more space to mount them
For the door mounted midbasses (6inch drivers that can play in a "leaky" door) I get best results from an amp that can double its rated power into half the required load. So if you need 100W into 4 then the amp should be able to get to 200W at 2ohms. Thats hard to find on the cheap. It takes a manly power supply with lots of reserve capacity to get good tight midbass out of doors. Especially when you cross em low to keep your image "up front" Its all about the control an amp exerts on the driver since the air in the door and the smaller magnet can't help much. Bridging a four channel may work but cheaper amps don't sound very good bridged. You need to try it and see if you can live with it. For Peerless midbasses 75 watts into 4ohms should be adequate.
For example I tried to use a McIntosh MC431 to play Dynaudio 15w75 exts in coupe doors and it completely lost it trying to play low midbass. I checked its power supply and it had a tiny reserve capacitance. I switched to a Soundstream ref amp and then to an Adcom gfa5475 and they both smacked the Dynaudios hard.
So all amps may measure and sound the same into a perfect resistive load used to get "power specs" but they will sound different when trying to play drivers mounted in doors at good'n loud listening levels.
As DJNUBS said theres alot more to good sound in a car than most people think or even care about. That how we end up with with BOSE systems being seen as "high end" by Joe Q. Public.
To get the best sound for the least money Ebay can't be beat. But its drawbacks (no warranty or support) may be to much of a hassle for you. I usually get used stuff and repair it if need be, so its not an issue for me. When I need new stuff I buy it from a local dealer I trust.
I find that cheap drivers distort way more than amps can.(unless they are clipping) Just look at the junk that passes for tweeters on the market today. After all how many speaker manufacturers even dare to post distortion specs for their components? Why would anyone recommend "better" amps to make up for a crappy component set? Maybe if you smoke'em and can get a free upgrade!
On the other hand really cheap amps will sound bad so you need to balance the system for your budget and best possible sound quality. Here's some ideas on how to get better sound out of "lower" quality or just cheaper older amps.
Peerless drivers (the company in Denmark?) are usually excellent for SQ on the cheap. Now you just need to find an amp that "sounds" good playing them. BTW that means hearing them in car, NOT on the display board. If the install sucks then all of this discussion is moot.
You really shouldn't need more than 30 watts for tweeters so use a separate 2 ch. amp like an adcom gfa4302. There are a couple on Ebay right now. They are a good value (compared to the newer hi-end amps) and sound great. But they are old school so if you want new amps look elsewhere. Clarity is paramount here not massive power. By using a separate tweeter amp you avoid the problems caused by a power hogging midbass "crosstalking" thru a 4 ch amps underrated 2 ch. power supply and collapsing the soundstage or blurring imaging. Because of this using two 2 ch amps will beat one 4 ch unless the 4 channel is very pricey. It just takes more space to mount them
For the door mounted midbasses (6inch drivers that can play in a "leaky" door) I get best results from an amp that can double its rated power into half the required load. So if you need 100W into 4 then the amp should be able to get to 200W at 2ohms. Thats hard to find on the cheap. It takes a manly power supply with lots of reserve capacity to get good tight midbass out of doors. Especially when you cross em low to keep your image "up front" Its all about the control an amp exerts on the driver since the air in the door and the smaller magnet can't help much. Bridging a four channel may work but cheaper amps don't sound very good bridged. You need to try it and see if you can live with it. For Peerless midbasses 75 watts into 4ohms should be adequate.
For example I tried to use a McIntosh MC431 to play Dynaudio 15w75 exts in coupe doors and it completely lost it trying to play low midbass. I checked its power supply and it had a tiny reserve capacitance. I switched to a Soundstream ref amp and then to an Adcom gfa5475 and they both smacked the Dynaudios hard.
So all amps may measure and sound the same into a perfect resistive load used to get "power specs" but they will sound different when trying to play drivers mounted in doors at good'n loud listening levels.
As DJNUBS said theres alot more to good sound in a car than most people think or even care about. That how we end up with with BOSE systems being seen as "high end" by Joe Q. Public.
To get the best sound for the least money Ebay can't be beat. But its drawbacks (no warranty or support) may be to much of a hassle for you. I usually get used stuff and repair it if need be, so its not an issue for me. When I need new stuff I buy it from a local dealer I trust.
DJNUBZ said:
I'm not stupid
is there anything stopping me from using a gainclone to run the tweets, either running off a home made switchmode powersupply, or a home made, low frequency, inefficient psu...
also, I wasn't going to mount the speakers straight into the doors.... I was going to make sealed fibreglass pods.... I don't like speakers that sound like they are mounted in cardboard boxes
X-Overs
Yeah sorry DJNUBZ I didn't get to that
Actually you don't have to run an all active x-over
I have used a hybrid passive/active x-over approach that you may want to consider. This will use the half of the passive x-over that you got with the component set and the built in active x-over in the midbass amp. Of course if you didn't get the passive x-over "for free" then I wouldn't go this route.
For the tweeter amps I refered to, it would be best just to use the passive hi-pass x-over that came with the component set (as long as it uses decent grade parts) since a lot of complaints about cheap active X-overs are avoided (crappy op-amps and ground noise). A little power will be lost to the tweeter level setting resistors but its no big deal. You can remove any tweeter protection ( after the gains have been set) if you wish because you are much less likely to clip a dedicated tweeter amp.
Another added benefit of running a passive hi-pass is that your tweeters are protected from DC offsets that amps can sometimes put out. This has caused a lot of "blown" tweeters
For the midbass you don't want anything between the driver and the amp. This will allow the amp to control the driver better which was the point of running two amps in the first place. You need an active low pass that matches the slope and crossover freq designed in the original passive low pass x-over. So try to find a midbass amp with the power AND the low pass X-over settings you need. Some of the better headunits may have a such a crossover built in also.
Your next hurtle is EQ hopefully taken care of in the headunit. Otherwise you need to spend good money for an external one.
Now you should be properly confused........and I'm completely OT
Yeah sorry DJNUBZ I didn't get to that
Actually you don't have to run an all active x-over
I have used a hybrid passive/active x-over approach that you may want to consider. This will use the half of the passive x-over that you got with the component set and the built in active x-over in the midbass amp. Of course if you didn't get the passive x-over "for free" then I wouldn't go this route.
For the tweeter amps I refered to, it would be best just to use the passive hi-pass x-over that came with the component set (as long as it uses decent grade parts) since a lot of complaints about cheap active X-overs are avoided (crappy op-amps and ground noise). A little power will be lost to the tweeter level setting resistors but its no big deal. You can remove any tweeter protection ( after the gains have been set) if you wish because you are much less likely to clip a dedicated tweeter amp.
Another added benefit of running a passive hi-pass is that your tweeters are protected from DC offsets that amps can sometimes put out. This has caused a lot of "blown" tweeters
For the midbass you don't want anything between the driver and the amp. This will allow the amp to control the driver better which was the point of running two amps in the first place. You need an active low pass that matches the slope and crossover freq designed in the original passive low pass x-over. So try to find a midbass amp with the power AND the low pass X-over settings you need. Some of the better headunits may have a such a crossover built in also.
Your next hurtle is EQ hopefully taken care of in the headunit. Otherwise you need to spend good money for an external one.
Now you should be properly confused........and I'm completely OT
confused? no....
I would make my own active crossover... which means I would really like to find an amp that didn't already have any crappy filtering inbuilt.. or, like I said, bypass all of it by modifying the amp 
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
also, the 24dB/oct means I can cross the tweeter over abit lower without having to worry about a reduction in power handling
I would make my own active crossover... which means I would really like to find an amp that didn't already have any crappy filtering inbuilt.. or, like I said, bypass all of it by modifying the amp
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
also, the 24dB/oct means I can cross the tweeter over abit lower without having to worry about a reduction in power handling
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