Yes, Interesting reading indeed. 
From the misty mists and the dusky dusk of 30+ years ago I do - almost - recall some of the premium cassettes. I suppose I never bought any, because I figured that an LP would be better, and I could make a nice copy onto cassette if I wanted. Nice to know there were some good quality tapes on the market.
From the misty mists and the dusky dusk of 30+ years ago I do - almost - recall some of the premium cassettes. I suppose I never bought any, because I figured that an LP would be better, and I could make a nice copy onto cassette if I wanted. Nice to know there were some good quality tapes on the market.
I "ripped" some old tapes I have onto my computer with a 3 head tape deck. The music all seemed slightly compressed compared to CD's I have of similar music. The particular deck I used had no problem making MUCH better recordings than I have ever heard from a prerecorded cassette. Just a mid-grade Sony deck.
Azimuth was a problem.
The best sounding and quietest cassettes of those I owned were a Cotillion 2-cassette Woodstock set that were non-dolby, IIRC.
Azimuth was a problem.
The best sounding and quietest cassettes of those I owned were a Cotillion 2-cassette Woodstock set that were non-dolby, IIRC.
IMHO Dolby causes more trouble than it solves. For Dolby to work the azimuth on playback must perfectly match the azimuth it was recorded with, if not then the only option is too play the tape with Dolby Off which causes unwanted artifacts. Besides I have read that many Dolby circuits cause negative impacts on the sound quality even when Dolby is not used. Besides a good recording made on a decent tape without Dolby would have minimal hiss anyway and for most types of music would be barely noticeable except for music with quiet passages ie some classical pieces. When I was into tape I would have loved a decent 3 head deck with no Dolby, but sadly I don't, think such a thing exists, I believe there were a few decks with true Dolby bypass but how good those decks were I don't know.
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Dolby compressed the signal, then expanded it when played back. The amount of compression and expansion was frequency dependent.
On paper this was a great idea. Problem is that it requires great precision to execute properly; not just the heads, but also the supporting circuitry. And predictably, it was almost always applied haphazardly and did awful things to the music. Manufacturers are always looking to save that last tenth of a cent, and in this case the consequences were that their much touted Dolby noise reduction was worthless window dressing.
On paper this was a great idea. Problem is that it requires great precision to execute properly; not just the heads, but also the supporting circuitry. And predictably, it was almost always applied haphazardly and did awful things to the music. Manufacturers are always looking to save that last tenth of a cent, and in this case the consequences were that their much touted Dolby noise reduction was worthless window dressing.
This thread has prompted me to play a few of my pre-recorded cassettes on my JVC UX-G3 micro system (plugged into my main hi-fi via the micro systems headphones socket, no Dolby circuits here). This little system does a fantastic job at playing pre-recorded cassettes better than most proper cassette decks IMHO (rubbish for recordings though). I'm listening to The Music of Mandingo (EMI label) as I type. Sounds pretty awesome to me, I don't think many people would believe they were listening to a cassette from 1977 bought from a charity shop for 25p!!!
I would love to see a cassette revival just like vinyl has seen but I don't think that's likely to happen, it will likely remain a hobby for a few enthusiasts. Cassette has the potential to rival vinyl as an analogue medium with the added advantages of portability, no inner groove distortion and no snap, crackle and pop (just a small amount of hiss with a good tape).
Oh well I can dream...
Oh well I can dream...
The problem is getting tape. I recently looked for blank Type II tape and came up empty. Quite frankly, I would be suspicious of damage if I did find some.
There's still a lot of decks out there. Typically they need new belts, and a clean and lube of moving parts. I have a couple I'm going to refurbish, some day.
Some inexpensive decks were very good. I used a Sony deck for years; made great tapes. My buddy has a Tascam pro deck (rack mount, very impressive looking) that needs some TLC. We're going to get em going again some day.
There's still a lot of decks out there. Typically they need new belts, and a clean and lube of moving parts. I have a couple I'm going to refurbish, some day.
Some inexpensive decks were very good. I used a Sony deck for years; made great tapes. My buddy has a Tascam pro deck (rack mount, very impressive looking) that needs some TLC. We're going to get em going again some day.
I have been away from the tape scene for a while but apart from new old stock on EBay there is the National Audio Company in the US National Audio Company and Tapeline in the UK Welcome, we tape tapes - Tapeline Ltd
And of course there is the Tapeheads forum Tapeheads.Net Home Page awesome site for anything tape related.
so im thinking to buy nak 580- 20kz for chrome- what response can i assume for ferro tape?
I had heard (as a youngin') that pre-recorded cassettes actually ran faster than the LPs presumably to save tape. A friend did say that he verified this on two pre-recorded cassettes vs. their LP counterparts. One was Crime of the Century; can't recall the other one. He said you could tell that the pitch was higher on the tape.
I suppose it could have just been bad QC that day as well.
I suppose it could have just been bad QC that day as well.
Tape wear
... and probable head wear on a second hand machine will mean that you will be unlikely to achieve the quoted specification. Even allowing for the head to still have life (typically 2000 to 3000 hours depending on the material) , transport and cassette shell related issues will cause tape path skewing meaning you won't get the top end response you expect.
The tapes will also wear every time they are played and they also age so that over time the top end response decreases due to gradual erasure. Having said that, I still have my old tapes from the 70s and 80s which still play fine. Then again, I carefully maintained the machines and didn't subject the tapes to extremes of temperature in storage.
The other thing to remember is that the "20kHz" limit is only for a signal level recorded at -20dB (ref 0dB = 250nWb/m). As the signal level increases, the tape saturates. For a ferric tape the SOL at 10kHz is anywhere from (for example) -8.5dB (TDK D - 1986) to -4dB (TDK AR-X - 1988) depending on the formulation. So the roll off occurs quite rapidly with signal level for "normal" ferrics. The cobalt doped ferric formulations have improved SOL.
For typical music sources following a pink noise characteristic, you will get up to about 15kHz for signal levels with peaks no higher than -4dB even with TDK D according to my digital transfers. For pre-recorded musicassettes recorded on CrO2 tape, I measure a response usually limited to about 15 as well.
... and probable head wear on a second hand machine will mean that you will be unlikely to achieve the quoted specification. Even allowing for the head to still have life (typically 2000 to 3000 hours depending on the material) , transport and cassette shell related issues will cause tape path skewing meaning you won't get the top end response you expect.
The tapes will also wear every time they are played and they also age so that over time the top end response decreases due to gradual erasure. Having said that, I still have my old tapes from the 70s and 80s which still play fine. Then again, I carefully maintained the machines and didn't subject the tapes to extremes of temperature in storage.
The other thing to remember is that the "20kHz" limit is only for a signal level recorded at -20dB (ref 0dB = 250nWb/m). As the signal level increases, the tape saturates. For a ferric tape the SOL at 10kHz is anywhere from (for example) -8.5dB (TDK D - 1986) to -4dB (TDK AR-X - 1988) depending on the formulation. So the roll off occurs quite rapidly with signal level for "normal" ferrics. The cobalt doped ferric formulations have improved SOL.
For typical music sources following a pink noise characteristic, you will get up to about 15kHz for signal levels with peaks no higher than -4dB even with TDK D according to my digital transfers. For pre-recorded musicassettes recorded on CrO2 tape, I measure a response usually limited to about 15 as well.
Presumably...I seriously doubt that they would calculate how much of super cheap tape they would save...think about it!
What i can say is that cassette decks do not always come with perfect playback speed. Over the turkey day i was sick with flu so i worked on three decks. Two onkyo and one nikko. I use service provided pro master tape with all the frequencies, levels, channel to channel azimut adjustment and so on...so i use 1kHz and 4kHz test tones to adjust tape speed.
Guess what...out of three vintage machines, none of them was right. Nikko was closest, 1k tone was 999, one onkyo was 1003, the other 1016 Hz.
They all sounded ok. I adjusted all to 1k, but the point is, slightly higher speed did not bother me, because it was not warbling. Granted, the pitch was higher on one onkyo, but it was not unpleasant.
You can easily test it yourself if you have lp player with adjustable speed...I have technics 1200.
We are very sensitive to speed variation, but if speed is stable but little of, we can tolerate it to some degree.
I believe your friend just happen to have deck with slightly higher playbeck speed...easy adjustment.
from another thread
The -20dB spec equalizes all manufacturers because altering the record level can manipulate the frequency response. No cassette deck that I am aware of can hit 20k at 0dB. The 1000ZXL will go out to damn near 28k at -20dB. But I can tell you that many Naks will hit a higher frequency than most other decks at higher record levels. Not only that but there is no high frequency information at 20k at 0dB, on top of the fact that most people in our age group, I'm thinking the majority of Tapeheads members are likely over 40, can't hear frequencies above 15k anyway. I know my hearing tops out at right around 13-14k because I can't hear my 14k Teac azimuth tape.
The -20dB spec equalizes all manufacturers because altering the record level can manipulate the frequency response. No cassette deck that I am aware of can hit 20k at 0dB. The 1000ZXL will go out to damn near 28k at -20dB. But I can tell you that many Naks will hit a higher frequency than most other decks at higher record levels. Not only that but there is no high frequency information at 20k at 0dB, on top of the fact that most people in our age group, I'm thinking the majority of Tapeheads members are likely over 40, can't hear frequencies above 15k anyway. I know my hearing tops out at right around 13-14k because I can't hear my 14k Teac azimuth tape.
found specs for hitachi d3500- 20kz chrome 15kz ferro- it seams maybe ferro IS limited in some way- with 20kz for chrome one would expect 17 or 18 ferro?
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