more belt stuff
The belt from Lawrence Blaire at Octave Audio arrived early this week. I think it was Tuesday. This is a belt from Schopper in Switzerland which is said by them to be their own design. Similar dimension to the original Thorens belt but supposedly with an improved material, which you expect given the 50 years that have passed since the time of the original TD124.
Today I took the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt off the TD124 today and cleaned the pulleys by Q-tip/alcohol while running the motor. There was considerable black residue build up on the Q-tip after cleaning just the motor pulley. This is after just 1 week ago having thoroughly cleaned all pulleys including the belt. The driven step pulley wasn't so dirty.
while there I happened to notice some black residue accumulation on the cast chassis beneath the belt path. Also, the magnet (eddy brake) was coated heavily in belt residue. These two areas had one year to accumulate the stuff.
That Thorens OEM belt really does shed.
Back to the Schopper belt which arrived earlier this week.
I compared it to the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt. Belt lengths were comparable and within 1/16th inch of each other. Width was also comparable. Belt strength/tension seemed noticeably stronger on the Schopper belt in comparison to the Thorens belt. But not nearly as strong as were those Florida ebay belts.
So after cleaning all the pulleys once again, and also wiping down the perimeter of the idler tire, then cleaning the inside rim of the driven flywheel with alcohol, I installed the brand new Schopper belt.
Upon cold start up, I noticed that the TD124 came up to speed normally but when speed stabilized the stobe indicated a slightly slow pace. I assume this to be due to the added belt tension of the Schopper belt. Solution; adjust eddy brake to correct nominal rpm and then see how it goes for the rest of the day.
I wish I could do a thorough analysis of all the belts I currently have. Mainly I'm interested in belt strength/elasticity and the chemical composition of each belt. The elasticity I can buy a gage for, the chemical analysis remains unknown to me. Too bad each belt doesn't come with a cert that details its material make-up.
Other dimensions like width, length and cross-section thickness can be measured by calipers.
Like this for length of the Thorens Logo belt (logo not seen in the photo). But the calipers easily impart some stretch against the belt so one needs to be sensitive to that while making sure that the belt is at full length.
-Steve
The belt from Lawrence Blaire at Octave Audio arrived early this week. I think it was Tuesday. This is a belt from Schopper in Switzerland which is said by them to be their own design. Similar dimension to the original Thorens belt but supposedly with an improved material, which you expect given the 50 years that have passed since the time of the original TD124.
Today I took the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt off the TD124 today and cleaned the pulleys by Q-tip/alcohol while running the motor. There was considerable black residue build up on the Q-tip after cleaning just the motor pulley. This is after just 1 week ago having thoroughly cleaned all pulleys including the belt. The driven step pulley wasn't so dirty.
while there I happened to notice some black residue accumulation on the cast chassis beneath the belt path. Also, the magnet (eddy brake) was coated heavily in belt residue. These two areas had one year to accumulate the stuff.
That Thorens OEM belt really does shed.
Back to the Schopper belt which arrived earlier this week.
I compared it to the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt. Belt lengths were comparable and within 1/16th inch of each other. Width was also comparable. Belt strength/tension seemed noticeably stronger on the Schopper belt in comparison to the Thorens belt. But not nearly as strong as were those Florida ebay belts.
So after cleaning all the pulleys once again, and also wiping down the perimeter of the idler tire, then cleaning the inside rim of the driven flywheel with alcohol, I installed the brand new Schopper belt.
Upon cold start up, I noticed that the TD124 came up to speed normally but when speed stabilized the stobe indicated a slightly slow pace. I assume this to be due to the added belt tension of the Schopper belt. Solution; adjust eddy brake to correct nominal rpm and then see how it goes for the rest of the day.
I wish I could do a thorough analysis of all the belts I currently have. Mainly I'm interested in belt strength/elasticity and the chemical composition of each belt. The elasticity I can buy a gage for, the chemical analysis remains unknown to me. Too bad each belt doesn't come with a cert that details its material make-up.
Other dimensions like width, length and cross-section thickness can be measured by calipers.
Like this for length of the Thorens Logo belt (logo not seen in the photo). But the calipers easily impart some stretch against the belt so one needs to be sensitive to that while making sure that the belt is at full length.
-Steve
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I'm staying tuned, plan eventually to evaluate the Thakker branded belt as well as the Schopper unless others have particularly bad experiences with one or the other.
So far the FLA belts have worked pretty well for me, but given that he may gets them from multiple sources the belts I have may be different from those others have tried. They run reasonably quiet and don't shed much..
Talc quiets all of these belts down, but the effect does not last that long. Polishing the pulleys so that the belt separates cleanly from the pulley seems to make a pretty big difference as well. Mine has remained consistent in noise level over the past 9 months or so.
So far the FLA belts have worked pretty well for me, but given that he may gets them from multiple sources the belts I have may be different from those others have tried. They run reasonably quiet and don't shed much..
Talc quiets all of these belts down, but the effect does not last that long. Polishing the pulleys so that the belt separates cleanly from the pulley seems to make a pretty big difference as well. Mine has remained consistent in noise level over the past 9 months or so.
more belt stuff; Schopper belt
This is a continuation of observations about belt discrepancies and the TD124. Having previously used the oem Thorens belt (with Thorens Logo and available through the Thorens dealer distributor network) for a 1 year period and then finding an excessive rubber residue build-up on both pulley surfaces and, additionally, heavy rubber dust accumulation in the general area of the belt path. This residue problem, which I find to be exceptional and abnormal for a TD124 drive belt, eventually led to speed consistency problems that became, ultimately, slightly audible......and more so visual while observing the strobe. (not rock solid)
After clean-up and maintenance which is described in a post 1 week earlier:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/174341-restoring-improving-thorens-td-124-mkii-49.html#post2863781
Now, having used the Schopper oem belt for a 1 day period I can report that the TT is behaving normally and that it sounds "on song", so to speak.
My intention is to remove the Schopper belt next week-end and examine the deck for evidence of excessive belt shedding. The 1 week period seems useful because that is how long I left the Thorens oem belt in this last period and then observed, again, abnormal belt residue accumulation on the drive pulley.
I should note that I believe the Thorens oem belt to be optimal in all other areas of performance, and in particular elasticity / tension strength. If only it did not shed so much of itself all over the chassis of the TD124.
As noted earlier, I thought the Schopper belt to be a bit stronger in elasticity/tension when compared to the 1 yr old Thorens belt but not excessively so, like some other ebay belts we've all seen. In the meantime I seem to be getting normal speed behavior out of my refurbished TD124 (early model) and it sounds now as good as ever.
Let's see what it looks like after a week.
-Steve
PS:
I should point out that ultill this last revelation with the oem Thorens belt, I had considered the TD124 to be rather belt tolerant. As in being generally unaffected by minor differences between different belts and their variation in elasticity/tension strength.
In comparison, and prior to, that, I have observed the effects that different belts have had on the performance of other models of Thorens belt drive players, In particular the TD150. In that case a belt which imparts too much tension against the drive pulley can cause the tiny TD150 motor to vibrate excessively into the motor plate. And this being clearly audible by means of a stethoscope held against the top motor plate, to which that motor is solidly mounted. Sound suffers in a case like that. To be sure correct belt length and tension is absolutely critical to getting the best possible sonic performance out of a suspended belt drive player like the TD150 and, I'd imagine, many other makes/models we all know that use a similar architecture.
This is a continuation of observations about belt discrepancies and the TD124. Having previously used the oem Thorens belt (with Thorens Logo and available through the Thorens dealer distributor network) for a 1 year period and then finding an excessive rubber residue build-up on both pulley surfaces and, additionally, heavy rubber dust accumulation in the general area of the belt path. This residue problem, which I find to be exceptional and abnormal for a TD124 drive belt, eventually led to speed consistency problems that became, ultimately, slightly audible......and more so visual while observing the strobe. (not rock solid)
After clean-up and maintenance which is described in a post 1 week earlier:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/174341-restoring-improving-thorens-td-124-mkii-49.html#post2863781
Now, having used the Schopper oem belt for a 1 day period I can report that the TT is behaving normally and that it sounds "on song", so to speak.
My intention is to remove the Schopper belt next week-end and examine the deck for evidence of excessive belt shedding. The 1 week period seems useful because that is how long I left the Thorens oem belt in this last period and then observed, again, abnormal belt residue accumulation on the drive pulley.
I should note that I believe the Thorens oem belt to be optimal in all other areas of performance, and in particular elasticity / tension strength. If only it did not shed so much of itself all over the chassis of the TD124.
As noted earlier, I thought the Schopper belt to be a bit stronger in elasticity/tension when compared to the 1 yr old Thorens belt but not excessively so, like some other ebay belts we've all seen. In the meantime I seem to be getting normal speed behavior out of my refurbished TD124 (early model) and it sounds now as good as ever.
Let's see what it looks like after a week.
-Steve
PS:
I should point out that ultill this last revelation with the oem Thorens belt, I had considered the TD124 to be rather belt tolerant. As in being generally unaffected by minor differences between different belts and their variation in elasticity/tension strength.
In comparison, and prior to, that, I have observed the effects that different belts have had on the performance of other models of Thorens belt drive players, In particular the TD150. In that case a belt which imparts too much tension against the drive pulley can cause the tiny TD150 motor to vibrate excessively into the motor plate. And this being clearly audible by means of a stethoscope held against the top motor plate, to which that motor is solidly mounted. Sound suffers in a case like that. To be sure correct belt length and tension is absolutely critical to getting the best possible sonic performance out of a suspended belt drive player like the TD150 and, I'd imagine, many other makes/models we all know that use a similar architecture.
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/174341-restoring-improving-thorens-td-124-mkii-50.html#post2869470
See above link to a post from last week. These threads tend to progress as we go and so for someone to come in cold and get the context, you'd have to back up a week or two, or month or two, then read the previous posts in order to get the full picture.
At the linked thread, also note the quote and email text from Schopper.
-Steve
ok
Steve, my apologies, but I have been here for years now. (see page 22).
Oh, I also also have talked to Schopper.
Regards,
Gene
Steve, my apologies, but I have been here for years now. (see page 22).
Oh, I also also have talked to Schopper.
Regards,
Gene
Well, a spliced together loop of recording tape, or mylar, even though it is rigid/non compliant at the forces in play, could exhibit some cog filtering if the suspension incorporated into a tensioner pulley system were compliant enough. In fact, now that I consider the possibility you point out, it could be a viable solution to the problem of belt creep in a belt driven TT.
Exhibit "A":
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Artemis Labs Schroder SA-1 turntable.
In the application seen above, that seems an intriguing solution. But on a TD124 I wonder how much value can be gained from such a challenging complication.
-Steve
Gotya.
I see you deleted that post.
I did not mean to seem short on patience. I miss some of the context in these threads all the time myself.
-Steve
Ok
Steve, your right, I did delete it. I did read the post you referenced, but didn't think of that when I posted. All is good, I love the TD 124 discussions here, we all can stand to learn something.
Regards,
Gene
Steve, your right, I did delete it. I did read the post you referenced, but didn't think of that when I posted. All is good, I love the TD 124 discussions here, we all can stand to learn something.
Regards,
Gene
more belt stuff; Schopper belt 1 week in use
Here's the Schopper belt being measured for length after 1 week in use.
It appears to measure slightly longer than the Thorens oem belt that I posted a photo of last week.
A photo of the Schopper belt still on the TD124 after 1 week in use.
With belt removed. Drive pulley is being cleaned by a Q-tip soaked in alcohol and held against the running pulley.
Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning the drive pulley only.
Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning both drive and driven pulleys. There was some accumulation of residue on the larger driven pulley. Not much.
1 week in use.
With the Schopper belt turned inside-out we can see the track of the belt path over both drive and driven pulley crowns. No evidence of wear just yet. Just evidence of having been in use.
I can say that over the past week the TD124 has behaved normally in terms of speed consistency and drive train noise.
So far so good with the Schopper belt. It doesn't seem to do anything negative after 1 week. I'd like it even better if it did not cost $35.00 USD. But after having paid dearly for the Thorens belt I have to like this one better.
This Schopper belt was acquired through Lawrence Blair at Octave Audio USA. The belt can also be acquired directly from Schopper in Switzerland at their website.
-Steve
Here's the Schopper belt being measured for length after 1 week in use.
It appears to measure slightly longer than the Thorens oem belt that I posted a photo of last week.
A photo of the Schopper belt still on the TD124 after 1 week in use.
With belt removed. Drive pulley is being cleaned by a Q-tip soaked in alcohol and held against the running pulley.
Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning the drive pulley only.
Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning both drive and driven pulleys. There was some accumulation of residue on the larger driven pulley. Not much.
1 week in use.
With the Schopper belt turned inside-out we can see the track of the belt path over both drive and driven pulley crowns. No evidence of wear just yet. Just evidence of having been in use.
I can say that over the past week the TD124 has behaved normally in terms of speed consistency and drive train noise.
So far so good with the Schopper belt. It doesn't seem to do anything negative after 1 week. I'd like it even better if it did not cost $35.00 USD. But after having paid dearly for the Thorens belt I have to like this one better.
This Schopper belt was acquired through Lawrence Blair at Octave Audio USA. The belt can also be acquired directly from Schopper in Switzerland at their website.
-Steve
Steve this belt is especially made in small quantities, the same holds for the rest of the Schopper parts. For larger quantities there is a price drop but for this kind of parts its difficult.
But if you see the troubles you get with the so-called replacement belts, its only 35 USD!
The main parts for the 124 are the motor, belt, and main bearing if these are in 100%
good shape you get the best results out this fantastic Swiss turntable !!
Volken
But if you see the troubles you get with the so-called replacement belts, its only 35 USD!
The main parts for the 124 are the motor, belt, and main bearing if these are in 100%
good shape you get the best results out this fantastic Swiss turntable !!
Volken
Yes. I have to agree. So long as we are supplied with a "correct" belt that is designed specific to the application, the price seems at least reasonable.
I was prepared to think that way with the oem Thorens logo belt, but was ultimately let down by the so-called "new Thorens" who apparently did not do adequate R&D to assure that they were putting their brand logo on a product worthy of the name. And that belt was similarly priced if not a little bit higher.
-Steve
PS: While on the subject of belts I decided to take a look at the oem Thorens logo belt I've been using on my TD150 for at least a year if not a little bit longer. There was quite a large built up of rubber residue on both drive pulley and the driven inner platter rim. Very similar to what I saw on the TD124. I'm guessing it might be the same rubber compound in use on both belts. Needless to say, I've now cleaned all belt drive and driven surfaces with alcohol on the TD150. Unfortunately I know of no oem belt for the TD150 that is superior to the oem Thorens logo product, so, after a wipe-down and powder, I put that belt back on the little belt drive player. At least we get a proper length, width, and tension with the Thorens product. And the little TD150 is back singing its tune. I'll just have to keep a more frequent look-out for residual build-up on the pulleys of this one.
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Steve, as usual, beautiful work.
Love the Thorens projects on your page. I'm the infamous "justaguy" from audioasylum (which I've given up on...it is just so huge and very tough to stay on task, but always a good read
).
Your TD150 really is quite beautiful. I think that creating a belt tensioner or idler (automotive style) and the 1/4" tape might be relatively easy to implement on the TD14X, 15X and 16X turntables. I have a few hacked up cassette decks (intended for spare hardware and mechanical bits, none of which were in running condition) so salvaged capstan rollers and pulleys are easy for me to consider.
Now if we could just get you away from that !#%^$! MDF...I guess I've never realized how varying the belts are .
Love the Thorens projects on your page. I'm the infamous "justaguy" from audioasylum (which I've given up on...it is just so huge and very tough to stay on task, but always a good read
).Your TD150 really is quite beautiful. I think that creating a belt tensioner or idler (automotive style) and the 1/4" tape might be relatively easy to implement on the TD14X, 15X and 16X turntables. I have a few hacked up cassette decks (intended for spare hardware and mechanical bits, none of which were in running condition) so salvaged capstan rollers and pulleys are easy for me to consider.
Now if we could just get you away from that !#%^$! MDF...I guess I've never realized how varying the belts are .
My experience with the Thorens OEM (modern) belt has been quite similar which is why I am no longer using it. Cleaning the running surfaces on a weekly basis was necessary to maintain good quiet operation.
I'm encouraged to hear the Schopper belt is working well, and will order at least one soon.
I'm encouraged to hear the Schopper belt is working well, and will order at least one soon.
Love the Thorens projects on your page. I'm the infamous "justaguy" from audioasylum (which I've given up on...it is just so huge and very tough to stay on task, but always a good read
Agree. Audio Asylum can be a bit trying at times. For my part I've been known to take a break away from that forum for a period of time..... only to eventually return knowing that as a resource for all things record player, VA has a very useful archive to search and filter through
Yes. I confess to having had the occasional daydream about one way or another to accomplish a Schroeder style tensioned tape drive system on a TD150. A project for some future day.....
What mdf? Something out of my past? These days I tend to work with baltic birch plywood. Pretty good stuff.
-Steve
I have received my Schopper replacement belt, but haven't mounted it yet, as my TD124 is running exceptionally well at present, with an inordinately long spin-down time after shut-down (2:45), and immediate "correct speed" at start-up. So why interrupt things when they are at this nice a state?
However, my previous Thorens belt, which I'm not using now, produced quite a bit of residue, to the point where I would get slurring at start-up after about a week, with the belt not engaging properly, there were also speed variations after a while. The person who refurbished my turntable has carried out a test similar to the one Volken describes.
All belts were stretched to the same point, and to the length that corresponds to the running length:
Original belts, 2 measured - many years old - 0,3kg
Schopper belt, 5 measured, little variance - 0,65kg
Florida belt, 5 measured, varied from 1,1-1,3kg - 1,25kg
Svalander belt (Swedish supplier), 1 measured - 1,1kg
His conclusion is that the Svalander belt and the ones from Florida (eBay) are too tight, and represent a doubling of the load compared to the Schopper belt, which will reduce the longevity of the bearings significantly.
However, my previous Thorens belt, which I'm not using now, produced quite a bit of residue, to the point where I would get slurring at start-up after about a week, with the belt not engaging properly, there were also speed variations after a while. The person who refurbished my turntable has carried out a test similar to the one Volken describes.
All belts were stretched to the same point, and to the length that corresponds to the running length:
Original belts, 2 measured - many years old - 0,3kg
Schopper belt, 5 measured, little variance - 0,65kg
Florida belt, 5 measured, varied from 1,1-1,3kg - 1,25kg
Svalander belt (Swedish supplier), 1 measured - 1,1kg
His conclusion is that the Svalander belt and the ones from Florida (eBay) are too tight, and represent a doubling of the load compared to the Schopper belt, which will reduce the longevity of the bearings significantly.
found this on fleabay:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/THORENS-TD124-TD124-MARK-II-WHEEL-PULLER-USA-MADE-/320841228437?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab3a0a095>
May suit one of you keen guys!
Nice piece. It does indeed look like a custom "pulley puller" that would work well on a TD124.
-Steve
I ordered two Schopper belts, one for each of my TD-124s, and will report back when they get here. The Swiss Franc is not as strong as I thought either which was a nice surprise.
I found Christine at Schopper extremely helpful, pleasant, and quick to deal with.. This makes it much more likely that I will spring for one of their lovely non-magnetic platters down the road a bit.
Edit: My TD-124/II came with the non-magnetic zamac platter which I have replaced with a stock cast iron platter which seems to work OK with the SPU. The cast iron platter is much more neutral sounding than the zamac platter which was brutally apparent the moment I installed it. The zamac platter does not sound bad per se with a little help, but the cast iron was a pretty big improvement in terms of unmasking detail and in getting rid of a certain zingyness that I was not fully aware of until it was gone.
I found Christine at Schopper extremely helpful, pleasant, and quick to deal with.. This makes it much more likely that I will spring for one of their lovely non-magnetic platters down the road a bit.
Edit: My TD-124/II came with the non-magnetic zamac platter which I have replaced with a stock cast iron platter which seems to work OK with the SPU. The cast iron platter is much more neutral sounding than the zamac platter which was brutally apparent the moment I installed it. The zamac platter does not sound bad per se with a little help, but the cast iron was a pretty big improvement in terms of unmasking detail and in getting rid of a certain zingyness that I was not fully aware of until it was gone.