The idea of having the plinth material gradually changing throughout its bulk was to make it more difficult for energy that passes through it to return. Whether this approach had any real impact compared to just using a single mass loaded bulk is another question. Personally I really like the solid slate plinth concept but we were mainly using the materials we already had so our plinth was considerably cheaper. My experience and intuition tell me that high mass high damping is the best type of plinth for this type of deck.
The main reason for my previous post was to introduce the idea of damping the cast chassis. This was definitely beneficial on the 301. I'm surprised that such an easy yet effective modification is not discussed more often in threads such as this one.
I popped into a local emporium of second hand hifi yesterday and the proprietor had a very nice looking td124ii with a 3009 in a maple plinth. He had completely restored it and it looked almost mint. Unfortunately it was already sold. He is normally very reasonable on price and £900 all in is a lot cheaper than I've seen many advertised for.
Niffy
The main reason for my previous post was to introduce the idea of damping the cast chassis. This was definitely beneficial on the 301. I'm surprised that such an easy yet effective modification is not discussed more often in threads such as this one.
I popped into a local emporium of second hand hifi yesterday and the proprietor had a very nice looking td124ii with a 3009 in a maple plinth. He had completely restored it and it looked almost mint. Unfortunately it was already sold. He is normally very reasonable on price and £900 all in is a lot cheaper than I've seen many advertised for.
Niffy
Seems like a fairly good price for a refurbished table. I've come to the conclusion after owning three SME 3009 Series II arms that they are one of the most overrated arms ever - at the price one could consider it a freebie to be sold off in the quest for something better. (Schick or Ortofon 9 or 12 inch arms would come to mind)
Thanks gentlemen. May be both type of plinths (Multi material or single material) works. I read in some old article garrard 301s were measured by mounting them in huge concrete blocks. Honestly I guess the difference of any of the plinth would be not much. Don't know for sure though.
Regards.
Regards.
TD 124 spins to slow on all speeds
Help,
I just bought myself an old TD124 I serial number just under 7000.
Motor is cleaned and has new oil. New Thorens original belt.
Has 232 Volt 50 Hz wall power. It spins 3-5 percent to slow!
What to do?
All rotating parts spins OK. Eddy current removed.
/Ingemar
Help,
I just bought myself an old TD124 I serial number just under 7000.
Motor is cleaned and has new oil. New Thorens original belt.
Has 232 Volt 50 Hz wall power. It spins 3-5 percent to slow!
What to do?
All rotating parts spins OK. Eddy current removed.
/Ingemar
Check across the on/off switch terminals for ohms. Should read ~ .1 ohms. If you get a read higher, say up around 20 - 30 ohms, the switch requires cleaning of its internal surfaces to remove oxidation. I recommend cleaning all metal surfaces with acetone. Then reassemble the switch and measure for ohms again, looking for .1 ohm reading across the + and - terminals.
IME when you have ohms reading as noted; 20-30 ohms across the terminal, it reduces voltage to the motor. Hence the slow running and low power.
Hint: Old style switch is disassembled simply by pressing that pin out that runs through the center of the plastic coverings. It should press through easy by using another pin to push it. Even a thumb tack or push/pull pin normally used on a cork board to hold up papers will suffice.
-Steve
In my experience the nylon bearings in the TD124 don't give any problems as long as you apply the correct lubricant. As is clearly stated in the instruction book the nylon bearings take silicon fluid, nothing else. With mineral or synthetic oil you will certainly risk the bearings seizing. Owners using the wrong lubricant is probably why the nylon bearings have such a bad rep.
The problem is during the time that the nylon bearings were fitted silicone based lube was not commonly available, and I am not entirely sure that Thorens used the correct lubricant in production either - stories of seized main bearings go back to relatively early in the production of this table. I am not aware of them ever offering a silicone oil lubricant for the main bearing. (No part number for it seems to exist?) There was at some point a factory retrofit bearing housing offered with sintered bronze bushings.
I've run across at least 3 tables with bad nylon bushings where the bushings had expanded sufficiently to seize to the spindle. The spindles were generally significantly scored at the edge of the bushings. In at least one other case a table fitted with nylon bushings ran slow regardless of eddy current brake setting and all of the other usual suspects - in this case replacing the bushings resulted in a table that ran well after some initial adjustments.
I own a very late MKII which came with oilite bushings in the main bearing housing, and a MKI which was in pieces missing the main bearing housing, platter, spindle and a whole bunch of other parts - it too would have been late enough that it would have been fitted with oilite bushings originally.
I've run across at least 3 tables with bad nylon bushings where the bushings had expanded sufficiently to seize to the spindle. The spindles were generally significantly scored at the edge of the bushings. In at least one other case a table fitted with nylon bushings ran slow regardless of eddy current brake setting and all of the other usual suspects - in this case replacing the bushings resulted in a table that ran well after some initial adjustments.
I own a very late MKII which came with oilite bushings in the main bearing housing, and a MKI which was in pieces missing the main bearing housing, platter, spindle and a whole bunch of other parts - it too would have been late enough that it would have been fitted with oilite bushings originally.
Attachments
My instruction book is in French/German, but in English translation this is what it says: "First version: Nylon bearing (black and shiny) only use silicon fluid Rhodorsil X 58 (Rhone Poulenc) or General Electric Silicone Fluid F 50". I think that is specific enough.
I find it hard to believe that Thorens would have ignored their own instructions in the production of the TD124.
I have used my nylon bearing TD 124 ( series nr. 211 85) for almost 30 years without the slightest problem from the main bearing. The fact that I have set it aside now for a total restoration has more to do with its age (ca 55 years) than problems with the main bearing.
I find it hard to believe that Thorens would have ignored their own instructions in the production of the TD124.
I have used my nylon bearing TD 124 ( series nr. 211 85) for almost 30 years without the slightest problem from the main bearing. The fact that I have set it aside now for a total restoration has more to do with its age (ca 55 years) than problems with the main bearing.
plastic main bearing sleeves
I also have some interest regarding the use of modern thermoplastics as a bearing sleeve in the TD124 housing. Presently, I am entertaining the use of Delrin as a bushing sleeve. although I have considered making sleeves out of Torlon 4301 or 4203.
What is prompting me to experiment this way is that I have one bearing housing that has the 17.5mm ID. More normal was the 18mm ID. And the 18mm OD Oilite sleeves are available conveniently where the 17.5mm sleeves seem to be available only as a custom order from suppliers that require minimum quantities to an order.
Other option is to buy some Oilite 18mm sleeves, construct a mandrill to hold the sleeves by their ID, while supporting the mandrill between centers of the lathe, then turn the sleeve OD's to the desired amount of press fit value.
Either is possible for me, but I am curious about using a modern thermoplastic in this app. Another plastic I might choose would be TekaPeek. This plastic is what VPI uses in their inverted platter bearings. (heresay). I presume lubrication would need to be compatible with the sleeve material. At the moment I do not know if the chemicals within turbine oil (petroleum based) would interact well or badly with Delrin.
-Steve
I also have some interest regarding the use of modern thermoplastics as a bearing sleeve in the TD124 housing. Presently, I am entertaining the use of Delrin as a bushing sleeve. although I have considered making sleeves out of Torlon 4301 or 4203.
What is prompting me to experiment this way is that I have one bearing housing that has the 17.5mm ID. More normal was the 18mm ID. And the 18mm OD Oilite sleeves are available conveniently where the 17.5mm sleeves seem to be available only as a custom order from suppliers that require minimum quantities to an order.
Other option is to buy some Oilite 18mm sleeves, construct a mandrill to hold the sleeves by their ID, while supporting the mandrill between centers of the lathe, then turn the sleeve OD's to the desired amount of press fit value.
Either is possible for me, but I am curious about using a modern thermoplastic in this app. Another plastic I might choose would be TekaPeek. This plastic is what VPI uses in their inverted platter bearings. (heresay). I presume lubrication would need to be compatible with the sleeve material. At the moment I do not know if the chemicals within turbine oil (petroleum based) would interact well or badly with Delrin.
-Steve
Hi All,
I have tested all your tips, but no luck so far!
Main platter spins for at least 60 sec when idler is removed.
I measured the voltage over motor, the highest i could find was 120v.
Tried and removed strobe lamp, same problem.
Checked resistant over power switch about 0,1 Ohm.
Eddy current magnet removed.
Voltage in 232 v 49,96 Hz measured with a Fluke.
Their is a serial resistor what does it do?
Voltage strap in correct place.
Diameter for idler wheel = 79,5 mm is this correct?
A 3:45 min song long is about 4:05 min it spins without speed fluctuations.
/Ingemar
I have tested all your tips, but no luck so far!
Main platter spins for at least 60 sec when idler is removed.
I measured the voltage over motor, the highest i could find was 120v.
Tried and removed strobe lamp, same problem.
Checked resistant over power switch about 0,1 Ohm.
Eddy current magnet removed.
Voltage in 232 v 49,96 Hz measured with a Fluke.
Their is a serial resistor what does it do?
Voltage strap in correct place.
Diameter for idler wheel = 79,5 mm is this correct?
A 3:45 min song long is about 4:05 min it spins without speed fluctuations.
/Ingemar
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you say you're about 3 - 5% slow? Well if it were 15% low I'd say you had the wrong drive pulley installed. So that's not it.
What about the motor. You've gone through it yet the TT runs slow. bushing/rotor shaft alignment. This is important. You should be able to free spin the rotor (with fingers and belt not on) and get like 30 second spin down times. super free spin. If that isn't working right, the motor has an extra load on it. And this type of motor does slow down when the load increases.
I think that is all I have.
-Steve
What about the motor. You've gone through it yet the TT runs slow. bushing/rotor shaft alignment. This is important. You should be able to free spin the rotor (with fingers and belt not on) and get like 30 second spin down times. super free spin. If that isn't working right, the motor has an extra load on it. And this type of motor does slow down when the load increases.
I think that is all I have.
-Steve
Alfapet speed issue
The rubber idler wheel diameter will not effect speed as it only serves as a transfer wheel. Isn't it ? The speed will be influenced by the motor pulley, stepped speed pulley and inside diameter of the platter. A little wear on these would affect the speed I guess.
Regards.
The rubber idler wheel diameter will not effect speed as it only serves as a transfer wheel. Isn't it ? The speed will be influenced by the motor pulley, stepped speed pulley and inside diameter of the platter. A little wear on these would affect the speed I guess.
Regards.
I have checked The Analog Dept. and The Vinyl Engine for TD124 manuals. The version at The Analog Dept. is too recent and nylon bushings are not mentioned, but in the list of downloads of TD124 documents at The Vinyl Engine the two manuals at the bottom, one in English and one in French, do have this info.