Restoring and Improving A Thorens TD-124 MKII

[Telemann]

I've ordered a Schopper-belt, should be here soon.

The Florida belts I got last year were quiet, but had too much tension, even after I put one around a Maxwell House can for a full day, to stretch it.

[volken]

I did some measurements on the belt tension with some belts I had on hand

Schopper 350 gr.
Ebay German replace.124 425 gr.
other Ebay German repl.124 600 gr !!!
Ebay UK replace. 124 375 gr
Old original worn belt 160 gr.

The old belt slips off the pulley during start up other replacements have to much tension
more noise and pressure on the idler bearings adding more noise !

[Telemann]

I bought three of the Florida-belts (eBay). They were all completely silent compared to the Schopper-belt I got a year ago, but had way too much tension, and the motor developed a whirr after a while, because of the drag from the belt, even when I tried to stretch it as describe above.

Switched to my old Thorens-belt, and got it to be the most silent of all. It's narrower, thinner and has less tension than any of the other belts available to me. But I have only one of them ...

Getting a new Schopper-belt to compare if there's been a change.

[user510]

I got in touch with Lawrence Blaire at Octave Audio USA and he agreed to forward a belt to me before my check arrived to him. I think he trusts me. Or knows how to find me

In the meantime, I received another reply from Schopper Switzerland. Below is the copy/paste of that communication. From this I gather that Octave Audio-USA is no longer a distributor for Schopper products. But he will have some remaining stock to sell.

Fwiw, I've never had any reason to worry about dealing with Lawrence Blaire.

Dear Steve !

This is of course no problem if you buy the belt from Lawrence Blair, if he
still has some Schopper belts.
But since a few month he is not our distributor anymore. In case you need
other parts or help, please do not hesitate to contact us anytime.

Best regards
Christine



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Steve Clarke [mailto:td160@theanalogdept.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2012 16:41
An: Schopper AG
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: TD124 drive belt

Thanks Christine.
I managed to get in touch with Lawrence Blaire
at Octave Audio-USA. He's going to supply me
with a Schopper belt.
I'm sorry to waste your time. I had forgotten
that we had a NA distributor for Schopper parts.
I hope you don't mind.

-Steve
The Analog Dept.


On 1/19/2012 7:18 AM, Schopper AG wrote:
> > Dear Steve !
> >
> > Please send CHF 40.-- by Paypal to info@schopper.ch
> >
> > Best regards
> > Christine
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Steve Clarke [mailto:td160@theanalogdept.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Januar 2012 22:17
> > An: Schopper AG
> > Betreff: Re: AW: TD124 drive belt
> >
> > Hi Christine.
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > Paypal is convenient for me. :-)
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/17/2012 7:38 AM, Schopper AG wrote:
>> >> Dear Steve !
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for your request.
>> >>
>> >> 1 Drive Belt for TD 124, CHF 35.--
>> >> Priority Shipping (without tracking number) to USA, CHF 5.--
>> >>
>> >> Total amount: CHF 40.--
>> >>
>> >> For payment we accept Paypal or credit cards. Please let us know what you
>> >> prefer and we will give you further instructions.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards from Switzerland
>> >> SCHOPPER AG
>> >> Christine
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >> Von: Steve Clarke [mailto:td160@theanalogdept.com]
>> >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Januar 2012 04:07
>> >> An: info@schopper.ch
>> >> Betreff: TD124 drive belt
>> >>
>> >> Hello.
>> >> Steve Clarke here from The Analog Dept. in
>> >> Seattle area. Can I purchase one of your
>> >> replacement drive belts for my TD124?
>> >>
>> >> tia,
>> >> -Steve
>> >> The Analog Dept.
>> >>
>> >>

[user510]

Originally Posted by volken

I did some measurements on the belt tension with some belts I had on hand

Schopper 350 gr.
Ebay German replace.124 425 gr.
other Ebay German repl.124 600 gr !!!
Ebay UK replace. 124 375 gr
Old original worn belt 160 gr.

The old belt slips off the pulley during start up other replacements have to much tension
more noise and pressure on the idler bearings adding more noise !

Very useful as a reference.
Thanks for that!!

-Steve

[kevinkr]

Yes, very useful.

Note that Thakker has their own belt now in addition to still carrying the more expensive modern Thorens OEM belt. Anyone have experience with this belt?

I take it from comments above that the Schopper belt is custom to them and not someone else's belt?

[Geneml]

Hi Kevin,

Why can't someone make a OEM-like belt? Seems pretty easy.

I've got my original, (small diameter, thin, but cracked) and a Thakker belt. The Thakker belt is ok, but not as good as I would like. There has been someone on Ebay lately selling a supposedly OEM Thorens belt. Any comments?


Gene

[audiogoose]

Had not checked this thread in quite some time. Interesting to see the experiences of various posters, regarding the belts that have been tried.
I, myself, have bought several different belts from various sellers on eBay and from Schopper.
The quietest of them all, in my experience, is the "Thakkar" belt that he sells on eBay for about $25. I have been curious about whether anyone else has used this belt.
Anyway, just wanted to relate my story on belts.

[Nanook]

Guys:

seeing as I do not own a single Thorens table (but I had one in the past and would love to get an old Thorens "hybrid"---TD 124 or similar), this might seem like me just "butting" in, but I do have a few questions (and I am jealous of any who have a GOOD idler or idler/belt "hybrid").

I'm sure most, if not all of you, know that some tables use 1/4" audio tape or 1/2" videotape as a drive belt. Is there any reason that 1/4" tape could not be used? Tension would be high, but the tape belt would need to be precision cut with a splicer and (as there is very little stretch ) the tape length/splice would need to be experimented with until a satisfactory result could be attained.

Regarding another alternative, why not have a belt made as per the Thorens one, but perhaps with a silicon based material. I only suggest this as I have a few "rubber bands" that are not rubber of any sort---they're silicon. Nuforce supplies one with their portable mobile Icon hp amp/DAC. If something suitable could be produced, would it not prove to be quite and long lasting?

Another thought might be to modify the Thorens (slightly) by adding a belt tensioner "idler, such as those found in automotive applications. Basically adjust the tensioner until the desired tension is attained.

Guys, forgive me in my ignorance. I know there are other practical considerations that I may be completely unaware of as far as actually fitting a tension idler or using a tape style belt. So please, none need to suggest I don't know what I am talking about. I'm aware of that .

[user510]

Originally Posted by Nanook

Guys:

seeing as I do not own a single Thorens table (but I had one in the past and would love to get an old Thorens "hybrid"---TD 124 or similar), this might seem like me just "butting" in, but I do have a few questions (and I am jealous of any who have a GOOD idler or idler/belt "hybrid").

I'm sure most, if not all of you, know that some tables use 1/4" audio tape or 1/2" videotape as a drive belt. Is there any reason that 1/4" tape could not be used? Tension would be high, but the tape belt would need to be precision cut with a splicer and (as there is very little stretch ) the tape length/splice would need to be experimented with until a satisfactory result could be attained.

Regarding another alternative, why not have a belt made as per the Thorens one, but perhaps with a silicon based material. I only suggest this as I have a few "rubber bands" that are not rubber of any sort---they're silicon. Nuforce supplies one with their portable mobile Icon hp amp/DAC. If something suitable could be produced, would it not prove to be quite and long lasting?

Another thought might be to modify the Thorens (slightly) by adding a belt tensioner "idler, such as those found in automotive applications. Basically adjust the tensioner until the desired tension is attained.

Guys, forgive me in my ignorance. I know there are other practical considerations that I may be completely unaware of as far as actually fitting a tension idler or using a tape style belt. So please, none need to suggest I don't know what I am talking about. I'm aware of that .

Firstly, in order to use a "rigid belt" (like recording tape or mylar) on any turntable it becomes necessary to include an adjustable means of tensioning the belt. For instance, an external motor pod that stands separate from the turntable plinth, like Teres/Galibier/Redpoint, some VPIs and others.

Without that ability to adjust tension, rigid belts are impossible.

So to incorporate a rigid belt, like recording tape or mylar, onto a TD124 you'd have to include a belt tensioner pulley. This is because the motor is mounted onto the TT chassis and offers no means of adjusting the motor position relative to the driven step pulley. I can almost envision a system for this, given the complication of the Thorens drive train. I'd imagine someone could accomplish that.

But then the question becomes; what is to be gained by such a modification?
Answer: if the tensioner pulley is functioning well, you probably gain optimal belt tension while reducing belt stretch. But in exchange for all this effort you lose the effect that the elastic belt has, the ability to dampen motor cogging. It's not quite known how much motor cogging is absorbed by the Thorens eddy brake pulley, likely some, and how much motor cogging is absorbed/damped by the idler/rim interface, likely some.

My take; the Thorens E-50 motor is the real limitation here. It is a somewhat crude motor that is fussy to give maintenance to and then in return it asks for that maintenance on a periodic basis. I'm not yet sure what that period is, but given the history of these turntables, there is an interval between maintenance sessions to be dealt with. Maybe it is just the lube evaporating out of the felts, or maybe the flimsy construction at the bushing housings and that thin little thrust cap.....

So my solution for the TD124 would be, firstly, to find a smoother running motor to replace the E-50. Perhaps the Papst replacement motor that Thorens itself provided in the seventies, a true 3-phase motor with rotating flywheel housing, is the answer here. But it needs a 3-phase motor controller to get the best from it. The hack that Thorens included, use of a capacitor to trick the motor into operating like a 2-phase motor, limits that Pabst's potential and pretty much eliminates it from consideration.....unless you can manage a 3-phase motor controller.

Then, I suspect we would view belt issues in a very different light.

Actually, I never considered the use of a rigid belt on the TD124. Even in light of the fact that I had owned a Teres 145 for a number of years and had spliced together many tape and mylar belts to keep that thing spinning. The TD124 just doesn't seem like an easy candidate for such a mod.

-Steve