OK. Looking at the photo full size I see that the 'shaft' has been removed from the stepped pulley. And I can see the bushing at the base holding the shaft.
The early version features a shaft that is fixed solid (with two set screws) to the base and the bushings are held within the stepped pulley.
The later version with the shaft (which you have removed) set-screwed into the stepped pulley and the bushings within the base as pictured.
Yet, a measurement / comparison between the two designs might be warranted because of the numerous complaints of stepped pulley noise associated with the mkII players.
-Steve
What you see on the picture is a bore gage checking the clearance from the sinterbearing as seen they are worn .
Volken
pin gage. Providing you have an incremental set, you can find the maximum size pin that will go in. Useful. I would not call that a bore gage, though.
-Steve
Esso ( Exxon ) thought modern oils unsuitable for phosphor-bronze when asked. Rega had big troubles with this when the Belgian supplier used the wrong oil in the motor bearings. It is said an employee used motorcar oil as too lazy to order the correct grade. As unlikely as it sounds this would slow the motors and stop a few. Only 50 % of motors could be saved by reverting to the correct oil. The shaft showed a black substance when the problem develloped months or years later. Whilst not ideal sewing machine oil if used frequently is OK.
Yes I have these set thank you for the right name in Germany were I bought these sets they call it Prüfstifte, Messstifte .
Volken
Yes I remember that with the small PM motors black gum-like substance !
Two things. In the motor a slightly suspect oil like sewing machine grade does one good thing. It keeps the rotation as noise free as possible if the bearings are OK. Rocking the shaft in the bearings usually shows if they are. A little movement is OK, obvious movement from side to side isn't. Phosporbronze for the centre bearing allows OK performance with no oil for many 10's of years. The idea being whilst not ideal it was realsaitically how the turntable would be used as many owners would be too timid to check. A good quality oil justs gets the best from the bearing. Here is the warning. Sophisticated motocar oils will be worse than no oil as black gunge is the risk. Given that I wasn't sure I would always use sewing machine oil. The suspect bit for sewing machine oil is I suspect frequent replacement a good idea as it is a bit thin.The reasoning to use this oil is easy availability and how sewing machines must run freely,
As you can see from the manual Thorens DOES recomend these oils and not sewing machine oil. The oils I quoted are specifically designed for turbines and general machinery, include antiwear components, rust and oxidation capabilities and are excellent industrial oils, NOT CAR OILS, they are single grade.Sewing machine oils dont have the right viscosity neither rust and oxidation inhibitors.
In North America the Three in One 20 sae wt electric motor oil recommended elsewhere in this thread gives quite good service over the 5 or more years I have used it and causes no problems with sludge, goo or anything else. Viscosity is approximately correct for the motor and main bearing, and from experience a bit light for the intermediate and idler bearings.
I have modern equivalents to both the recommended oils which I will use in the next service. (And some major upgrades to the older 124 I own)
I have modern equivalents to both the recommended oils which I will use in the next service. (And some major upgrades to the older 124 I own)
The problem with 3 in 1 etc is they gum up in time. If plenty is added each month it probably would be OK. I fancy Olive Oil could work. Speedway bikes ran on Castrol R. It was fine as long as in constant use. We blew an engine once by not respecting that and thinking it would be OK. It showed up in the oil line as lumps. It is what is called total loss lubrication and this time it was! Java engine if asking. R is a vegatable oil.
Nigel, that's actually not true, no problem at all with Three in One 20 wt electric motor oil. (This is not the general purpose light lubricating oil that they make) I've been using it for 5 years and neither table has had to be relubricated so far. (No evidence of gum in either motor or anywhere else.)
I heard a rumour that 3 in 1 was no loger vegatable based. The source of information was sewing machines people where it " was " a no no. As you say it is quite usuable. What might have been overlooked is the original 1950 oil may still be in use even in a seemingly dry bearing. People don't realise almost nothing on Earth shifts it from the bearings. The heat of the motor tends to make it migrate a little. What oil we add helps the gap. It will also clean out gunge if 3 in 1 as it is nice and light . For peace of mind give it a driop once a month. Other than that I tend to agree.
As far as I know it's never been vegetable based at least here in the U.S. It is clearly marked as petroleum based. The oil I refer to is commonly used to lubricate small to medium sized electric motors and is often used to lubricate circulator motors in hydronic based heating systems.
I need to remind you the oil I am talking about is NOT sewing machine oil. There are several products sold under this label.
I need to remind you the oil I am talking about is NOT sewing machine oil. There are several products sold under this label.
I think I believed the sewing machine people without checking. Reasuring to know off the shelf 3 in 1 can be used. I just wrote to 3 in 1 as they seem very helpful and have answered similar questions for other users. For example it is a non detergent oil. They seem a bit careful about what they do say so I doubt I will get the answer exactly as I want it.
Geoff Pople of the Quad service department in the past recomended WD40 ( also the 3 in 1 company ) as the better switch cleaner. The Quad 33 has a nightmare set of switches which were available at the time as spare parts. Geoff said usually WD40 would rescue them and asked people not to swap the switches unless convinced they were dead. I have just rescued a 33. It took time ( days ) to really work, not the first time it was done. Geoff said it didn't seem to strip the silver plating away as some cleaners do. A broken 33 sounds more like a power amp fault.
Geoff Pople of the Quad service department in the past recomended WD40 ( also the 3 in 1 company ) as the better switch cleaner. The Quad 33 has a nightmare set of switches which were available at the time as spare parts. Geoff said usually WD40 would rescue them and asked people not to swap the switches unless convinced they were dead. I have just rescued a 33. It took time ( days ) to really work, not the first time it was done. Geoff said it didn't seem to strip the silver plating away as some cleaners do. A broken 33 sounds more like a power amp fault.
This was my question .
Nigel's Comments:
On a hi fi forum we wanted to know if 3 in 1 is a vegatable oil or contains some. The advice was, if so use frequent additions of oil. Other than that 3 in 1 ticks all the boxes. People who service sewing machines tend to recomend against it's use. It might be that they are ill imformed. This would be to lubricate phosphor bronze.
Nigel's Comments:
On a hi fi forum we wanted to know if 3 in 1 is a vegatable oil or contains some. The advice was, if so use frequent additions of oil. Other than that 3 in 1 ticks all the boxes. People who service sewing machines tend to recomend against it's use. It might be that they are ill imformed. This would be to lubricate phosphor bronze.
I've just had confirmation from WD40 UK from their PR lady (who prefers not to be named ) that 3 in 1 only has mineral oils. That looks to be a big tick in it's favour. Interestly refered to the UK side to answer my question ( Milton Keynes ). One thing I hadn't considered is people using 3 in 1 might just be liberating gunge as it is lighter than motor oil. If so when refilling it should be cleaned out the second time. BTW, Castrol in the past were more than helpful. Oil people tend to know what they are talking about and even know obscure facts and uses.
There still seems to be some confusion.
The oil in question is not, I repeat - NOT; 3-in1 Oil. It is Electric motor lube from the 3-In-One corp.
We know that it is a straight 20wt lube. What its exact chemistry is, we have not yet learned but many are using it in their TD124's with no apparent difficulty.
That said; and for whatever it might be worth, Thorens was specific enough in their service manuals about the types of lube recommended by their designers. And I'm using turbine oil from Texaco. Texaco R&O iso 46 (20 wt) because it is the closest currently available to the oils specified in that manual. Been using it since 2008
-Steve
That looks very good. I think the standard 3 in 1 would be OK. SAE 30 sometimes is better. If nothing else I suspect normal 3 in 1 would clean out any gunge. The thing to understand is the original Thorens oil is almost impossible to wash out of the phosphor bronze. Mostly what we are doing is adding to the blend or cleaning. The heat of the motor causes a tidal flow of oil. If you want to do the very best you can I would try standard 3 in 1 and then never switch the unit off. The BBC didn't and old PYE ( Telstar ) records never switched their 301 off ( I serviced it ) . That way the tidal flow is near zero. The bad bit of the tidal flow ( heat high to low ) is if the wrong oil it gets drawn in after a few cycles. Whilst I shouldn't have believed the sewing machine people it was best to ask about 3 in 1 as it is so common. It invites that it will be used.
I built a turntable without a pully and set the speed by an oscillator, shaft was 6 mm instead of usual 6.33 of the pully and 4.91mm shaft ( Garrards own size, seems to be 5 mm polished ). The oil regarless of how little always went up the shaft and we got wow. The cure was simple. I fitted a device much like a pully to stop it. I now use that for 78's and to stop the oil climbing the shaft. Still get the better flutter of direct on the shaft as a bonus. It looks good also. This allows the use of stock bearings ( Oilite ). The Garrard can be drilled with oil ways and let into the original. It must be a push fit and not forced in. Be very careful if replacing a shaft. It will retain balance if you are. The shaft I used was a Thorens supplier. Also, static balance is best. Dynamic balancing machines seem to damage the shafts.
Once the motor is fully lubricated ( washed ) and kept running any oil added to the top bearing will in time find it's way down to the bottom bearing. If never switched off this oil will mostly do what was hoped for. The switching off is a small risk. You will also find idlers seem to last forever. Power used is not great.
I built a turntable without a pully and set the speed by an oscillator, shaft was 6 mm instead of usual 6.33 of the pully and 4.91mm shaft ( Garrards own size, seems to be 5 mm polished ). The oil regarless of how little always went up the shaft and we got wow. The cure was simple. I fitted a device much like a pully to stop it. I now use that for 78's and to stop the oil climbing the shaft. Still get the better flutter of direct on the shaft as a bonus. It looks good also. This allows the use of stock bearings ( Oilite ). The Garrard can be drilled with oil ways and let into the original. It must be a push fit and not forced in. Be very careful if replacing a shaft. It will retain balance if you are. The shaft I used was a Thorens supplier. Also, static balance is best. Dynamic balancing machines seem to damage the shafts.
Once the motor is fully lubricated ( washed ) and kept running any oil added to the top bearing will in time find it's way down to the bottom bearing. If never switched off this oil will mostly do what was hoped for. The switching off is a small risk. You will also find idlers seem to last forever. Power used is not great.