Unless you happen to follow one of the 'ways/teachings' of Zen then it really means whatever claptrap, hogswash, bullpoop you want it to - which is about as far away from the truth of zen as you could get 
Found a great article on the 'modern' misuse of the word that had these amazingly banal magazine article titles listed to show just how little knowledge of true Zen we have. (highlighted my fav's)
“Cranky consumer: Zen and the art of car rental” “The Zen of the bus” “Of moss and men: the Zen of green gardening” “Zen and the art of anti-inflammatories” “Zen and the art of propane safety” “The Zen of contractor relations” “Zen and the art of operating system maintenance” “Zen and the art of IT governance” “Zen and the art of jurisprudence” “The Zen of meetings” “The Zen of kitchen storage” ”Zen and the art of award placement” “The Zen of frosting” “Zen and the art of fettuccini” “Zen and the art of dishwashing” “Zen and the art of motherhood” “Zen and the art of pedicure” “Lose weight the Zen way” “The Zen of Alzheimer’s” “Zen and the art of lechery”
The author gave a great description of 'pop-zen':
'The popular notions, not altogether surprisingly, generally focus on Zen as a source of coolness, serenity and clear-minded focus and concentration. Such single-mindedness is thought to lead to self-improvement and success in business or personal affairs, contributing to Zen’s special cachet.'
its probably best to leave the word alone lest we look a bit stupid, and actually state what we mean instead.
Good engineering after all doesn't need to hide behind bullpoop now does it?
Found a great article on the 'modern' misuse of the word that had these amazingly banal magazine article titles listed to show just how little knowledge of true Zen we have. (highlighted my fav's)
“Cranky consumer: Zen and the art of car rental” “The Zen of the bus” “Of moss and men: the Zen of green gardening” “Zen and the art of anti-inflammatories” “Zen and the art of propane safety” “The Zen of contractor relations” “Zen and the art of operating system maintenance” “Zen and the art of IT governance” “Zen and the art of jurisprudence” “The Zen of meetings” “The Zen of kitchen storage” ”Zen and the art of award placement” “The Zen of frosting” “Zen and the art of fettuccini” “Zen and the art of dishwashing” “Zen and the art of motherhood” “Zen and the art of pedicure” “Lose weight the Zen way” “The Zen of Alzheimer’s” “Zen and the art of lechery”
The author gave a great description of 'pop-zen':
'The popular notions, not altogether surprisingly, generally focus on Zen as a source of coolness, serenity and clear-minded focus and concentration. Such single-mindedness is thought to lead to self-improvement and success in business or personal affairs, contributing to Zen’s special cachet.'
its probably best to leave the word alone lest we look a bit stupid, and actually state what we mean instead.
Good engineering after all doesn't need to hide behind bullpoop now does it?
"leads to understanding" is the relatively, hah!, straightforward bit: "being able to explain it analytically" can be a nightmare, only the most brave, astute, and perhaps foolhardy should venture there.
Otherwise, how else do you explain all the craziness in this endeavour, of audio ...?
Frank
its probably best to leave the word alone lest we look a bit stupid, and actually state what we mean instead.
Someone on the path of Zen is hardly going to be worried about how he or she is perceived by others. That would be egotistical.
Zen is a path to enlightenment.
To be enlightened is to be conscious without thought, to know reality without the dualism imposed by language. To see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy.
Everybody knows that.
Everybody that isn't trapped in maya, that is.
To be enlightened is to be conscious without thought, to know reality without the dualism imposed by language. To see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy.
Everybody knows that.
Everybody that isn't trapped in maya, that is.
Dare I say Zen has no meaning..
It is just Zen..
It can contain a path .."to reach enlightenment" should just mean you have found the next question..
To reach enlightenment? what does that mean?
Normaly when you ask what is Zen...and someone struggles to answer they understand..(the art of no mind)(everything just is)
Regards
M. Gregg
It is just Zen..
It can contain a path .."to reach enlightenment" should just mean you have found the next question..
To reach enlightenment? what does that mean?
Normaly when you ask what is Zen...and someone struggles to answer they understand..(the art of no mind)(everything just is)
Regards
M. Gregg
My meaning was that there is nothing magical or 'zen' about getting things right. I did not mean to imply that good engineering is common. In some branches of engineering it is. In audio it seems not - as some seem to reject engineering altogether.abraxalito said:
Zen is the path to self-delusion. If you want enlightenment you need to explore monotheism. If I say any more the mods will jump on me. We are not supposed to talk religion on here, so can we stop talking about a branch of Buddhism?counter culture said:
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But at some point you will have to stop prevaricating, waffling and actually physically touch something - at which point it becomes engineering again of some sort. That is unless you think you can 'will' yourself a better system?
There is always the obvious 'just accept your system as it is' and this is closer to Zen than anything mentioned
That is confusing hifi with religion. After all they wouldn't be talking about it on a forum if it were really Zen. And as its not, in actual fact, anything to do with Zen it is rather egotistical to even use the word in relation to something that one would have left behind on the path of Zen
Exactly - its time to stop talking about it and actually DO something. Sooner or later, to get anything changed, you'll have to get up from the lotus position and pick up a soldering iron, multimeter, saw, design plan etc etc and thats engineering NOT Zen because Zen is understanding (in the mind), not wielding a circular saw.
As I said before 'its probably best to leave the word alone lest we look a bit stupid, and actually state what we mean instead'. If we cant state what we mean in clear terms then how clear is it on our own head and how can we expect others to take it seriously, let alone understand and try it out? Bastardising Zen reminds me of some shiny suit & clip on ponytail wearing, big cigar smoking, golf putting in the office with an indoor 'zen' garden, Texan CEO from an 80's movie who spouts little sayings he read from Sun Tzu's The Art of War but doesn't understand.
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Touching is more the actions of a technician, and that is of course just as valid as the mental gymnastics of the engineer. I have been inspired both by the looking at, and touching of the components, having an instinct that fiddling in some particular area may be of value; and through playing with "proper" engineering tools, like LTspice, idly daydreaming about "boneheaded" ideas, and then exploring thoroughly the potential of the "light bulb" messages ...
Sorry, accepting "as is" will never be part of my "Zen" - being true to myself will never countenance "boring", or "more of the same" ...
Frank
This is why the word Zen should be left alone. Zen is not in the physical and requires no interaction with the physical.
What you are describing is good old fashioned problem solving harking all the way back to a pointy stick and then adding a pointy stone to that stick. It ain't Zen. Maybe its better to call it wisdom, which is the correct application of knowledge gained. Otherwise you could have an 'instinct' that the glue holding the little rubber feet on was the core problem in your system.
It's the same as everything was turbo this and laser that in the 80's. Its just the word (with cachet) of the moment and Zen was rather last decade (at best!!)
So it isn't really Zen, hasn't been and never will be. Why? Because it can't be Its your ethic, workflow, cognitive function, wisdom, style, even chosen path for goodness sake!!! Just not Zen
What you are describing is good old fashioned problem solving harking all the way back to a pointy stick and then adding a pointy stone to that stick. It ain't Zen. Maybe its better to call it wisdom, which is the correct application of knowledge gained. Otherwise you could have an 'instinct' that the glue holding the little rubber feet on was the core problem in your system.
It's the same as everything was turbo this and laser that in the 80's. Its just the word (with cachet) of the moment and Zen was rather last decade (at best!!)
So it isn't really Zen, hasn't been and never will be. Why? Because it can't be
Its your ethic, workflow, cognitive function, wisdom, style, even chosen path for goodness sake!!! Just not Zen
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I see 'magic' and 'Zen' as orithogonal - I'm assuming that you don't ? Engineering is not just about 'getting things right' its also about 'getting the right thing'. Merging those two aspects takes a not inconsequential degree of attention to detail.
How do you get to 'not common' from the observation that some reject engineering?
Self-deluded nonsense.
On the contrary, if you want enlightenment that's a way of saying its not something you currently have. Therefore you deny it to yourself, no matter whether you're a monotheist or a Buddhist. There's nothing at all religious about enllightenment.
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guys DF96 was right, you are skating on the thin ice with respect to the rules on discussion of religion.I wasn't saying I want enlightenment, as I believe I already have it (like all who take their faith seriously). Unless, of course, by that word you mean something quite different from what I mean by it. I mean knowing who I am, where I come from, why I am here and where I am going. I'm not sure what that has to do with audio. I can discuss audio electronics quite meaningfully with other people with hugely different religious views, provided they don't have clashing philosophical views. For example, I am a realist but I can talk electronics with an instrumentalist, but perhaps not anyone who is too postmodern as they have no concept of truth so may prefer crystals to Ohm's Law.
If the subject is now 'truth' rather than 'Zen' then this meditation from Anthony de Mello feels apposite:
ANTHONY de MELLO: Mysticism
ANTHONY de MELLO: Mysticism
Hi,
Possibly a negative way of describing it would help. Enlightenment is avoiding
self-delusion as to what is actually going on in audio equipment objectively
and its possible subjective effects. Saying you don't really know, or you
have some suspicions about things might be this way is not self-delusional.
Claiming you actually do know what's going on without objective measurement
and with a load of subjective waffle regarding the "evidence" your ears tell you
is not enlightened, its a clear path to pure conjecture, waffle and hot air.
"Zen and the art of XXXX" was nicked by RP from "Zen in the Art of Archery".
If anything in this common (not religious) meaning it relates to the quality
of the information being conveyed and how that information can be used.
R.E.'s DoZ article is very good on both counts, why I think it is "Zen" ....
Stuff actually purporting to be "Zen" usually fails both the above criteria.
rgds, Sreten.
Possibly a negative way of describing it would help. Enlightenment is avoiding
self-delusion as to what is actually going on in audio equipment objectively
and its possible subjective effects. Saying you don't really know, or you
have some suspicions about things might be this way is not self-delusional.
Claiming you actually do know what's going on without objective measurement
and with a load of subjective waffle regarding the "evidence" your ears tell you
is not enlightened, its a clear path to pure conjecture, waffle and hot air.
"Zen and the art of XXXX" was nicked by RP from "Zen in the Art of Archery".
If anything in this common (not religious) meaning it relates to the quality
of the information being conveyed and how that information can be used.
R.E.'s DoZ article is very good on both counts, why I think it is "Zen" ....
Stuff actually purporting to be "Zen" usually fails both the above criteria.
rgds, Sreten.
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