Thank you. This is interesting. BACCH is not really Ambiophonics although both based on XTC. In ambiophonics the speakers must be closer around 20 degrees. BACCH meant for speakers around 60 degrees.
I will compare both. Thanks again
I think the ideal setup for BACCH would still be a ~20 degree setup. Most samples and demo's will be catered for 60 degree stereo setups though.
I couldn't see any BACCH filters being available, the earlier work from prof. Edgar Choueiri (from before he left the ambiophonics project) is floating around though, as a set of IR's.
I couldn't see any BACCH filters being available, the earlier work from prof. Edgar Choueiri (from before he left the ambiophonics project) is floating around though, as a set of IR's.
Attachments
The set of IRs available from Ambiophonics.org was specially created by Farina. Choueiri created a far better XTC algorithm than ambiophonics, although I would put the relevance is akin to overhead speakers in ATMOS system. I doubt, you would want to hear bees buzzing near you ears often enough and no classical music or most of the normal music without SF contains such sound(s).
If I am not mistaken the initial research of BACCH was funded by Sony. Therefore it is possible that due to commercial interest the free BACCH filter is no longer available. Ralph's idea of ambiophonics is that it should be free for all.
If I am not mistaken the initial research of BACCH was funded by Sony. Therefore it is possible that due to commercial interest the free BACCH filter is no longer available. Ralph's idea of ambiophonics is that it should be free for all.
Prof. Edgar Choueiri's IR's from his time spend within the Ambiophonics project have been floating around on the net (at least years ago, must have been around 2011/2012). I don't remember who made me aware of them but I'm definitely not the only one that has them. They didn't exactly part as friends.
Some review's I've read about BACCH are a bit double. They rave about the 3D part but when asked the question if you'd always want to hear your music that way quite a few preferred old fashioned setups.
The paper from prof. Choueiri is an interesting read. Although I call my speakers in the back an ambient setup most of the processing is heavily inspired by both Ambiophonics and BACCH. I'm just not prepared to move my speakers closer together.
These cross talk cancelation ideas do work, using it can also enhance a regular Stereo setup.
Some review's I've read about BACCH are a bit double. They rave about the 3D part but when asked the question if you'd always want to hear your music that way quite a few preferred old fashioned setups.
The paper from prof. Choueiri is an interesting read. Although I call my speakers in the back an ambient setup most of the processing is heavily inspired by both Ambiophonics and BACCH. I'm just not prepared to move my speakers closer together.
These cross talk cancelation ideas do work, using it can also enhance a regular Stereo setup.
I see it's still mentioned on ambiophonics.org:
Source: Home Page
And this post is where I probably got it: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12366.html
Source: Home Page
And this post is where I probably got it: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12366.html
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When you said IR, I was referring Impulse Response for convolution. I wasn't aware of Choueiri's cancelling IR XTC nor do I recall seeing it in in the website. Will ask Ralph about it. Thanks for pointing out.
I still think Ambio plus the 22 convolution is more than enough for movies and music eventhough I have used my Ambio setup for 5.1 and yet it plays movies with 360 degrees with regular setup far better than my 5.1 HT setup. Too bad Choueiri BACCH is too expensive for me.
I still think Ambio plus the 22 convolution is more than enough for movies and music eventhough I have used my Ambio setup for 5.1 and yet it plays movies with 360 degrees with regular setup far better than my 5.1 HT setup. Too bad Choueiri BACCH is too expensive for me.
It's out of sheer curiosity that I both try and follow concepts like these. It certainly helped me get a better understanding of how we hear and what we can do to improve that experience. A fun but time consuming learning experience that I would recommend to anyone interested.
I can't afford Choueiri's BACCH endeavour either.
I'd like to hear it other than the demo's supplied on various websites plus an interview I have stashed somewhere on my HD with other demo songs and sound.
It certainly inspired me in my own experimenting and made me work a little harder to get what I want out of it all.
I can't afford Choueiri's BACCH endeavour either.
I'd like to hear it other than the demo's supplied on various websites plus an interview I have stashed somewhere on my HD with other demo songs and sound. It certainly inspired me in my own experimenting and made me work a little harder to get what I want out of it all.
Wow! Impressive. I have your post before but didn't go through in detail as I am not a DIYer. Reminds me of IDS25.
Actually, I was looking for a diagram of the speakers placement and what is being fed to which speakers. I apologize in advance if I missed that since it is very difficult to navigate using a small iPhone SE.
Actually, I was looking for a diagram of the speakers placement and what is being fed to which speakers. I apologize in advance if I missed that since it is very difficult to navigate using a small iPhone SE.
I only use 4 speakers, the two big ones and two full range speakers that don't fire straight at the listening spot but diffract back to it. All of them with controlled FR spectrum trough DSP.
The front speakers are fed with Stereo (using some mid/side EQ), using FIR filters to have them align time coherently at the listening spot. Hidden are panels that absorb all first reflection points.
The back is fed by two separate signals, one for ambience, based on a delayed band and SPL limited (L-R and R-L) signal with a hint of added (Random Hall) reverb.
The other signal is used as cross talk cancelation and only has phantom centre info as the base ingredient. Gradually grew into this solution over a couple of years while trying many concepts in between. Too much to tell in a couple of sentences.
The front speakers are fed with Stereo (using some mid/side EQ), using FIR filters to have them align time coherently at the listening spot. Hidden are panels that absorb all first reflection points.
The back is fed by two separate signals, one for ambience, based on a delayed band and SPL limited (L-R and R-L) signal with a hint of added (Random Hall) reverb.
The other signal is used as cross talk cancelation and only has phantom centre info as the base ingredient. Gradually grew into this solution over a couple of years while trying many concepts in between. Too much to tell in a couple of sentences.
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But this is diyAudio.com@wesayso,
I am using Miller's DSP although I think the MiniAmbio sounds better. I have experimented with somewhat similar method like yours, i.e., using out of phase rear speakers before the pre Ambio setup. Everything sounded nice but not necessarily an accurate representation of actual recordings sound.
Another option that you could try is to setup your front speakers in standard stereo mode but the rear ones with Ambiophonics setup.
@Pano,
Not a proper DIYer like most of you guys. And there is no way I could accomplish what Wesayso could do. But I can offer a thing or two for room treatment DIY stuff. Everything in my room was DIYed by myself , including the box in box room design.
I am using Miller's DSP although I think the MiniAmbio sounds better. I have experimented with somewhat similar method like yours, i.e., using out of phase rear speakers before the pre Ambio setup. Everything sounded nice but not necessarily an accurate representation of actual recordings sound.
Another option that you could try is to setup your front speakers in standard stereo mode but the rear ones with Ambiophonics setup.
@Pano,
Not a proper DIYer like most of you guys. And there is no way I could accomplish what Wesayso could do. But I can offer a thing or two for room treatment DIY stuff. Everything in my room was DIYed by myself , including the box in box room design.
The virtual Haas kicker is timed late at ~20 ms. The added reverb return is only influencing very late room ambience past 150 ms.
As said it isn't anything standard I'm using and it's function is more to hide the real room I am in than to add anything of it's own. All it does enhance the front stage and general feel of space.
I've had real room IR's do the Haas Kicker part. The main difference was it added the same "room" sound signature to every song.
I assume you use IR's from a real room similar to these?
How would that be more accurate than what I'm doing? It would add a (chosen) room signature to the recording, that's not what I try to do.
I've experimented with a few of those (both the 120 degree and 135 degree) too as well as many others from other sources. I prefer what I have now with synthesized reverb. It's down far enough to not notice it until it's turned off. It gets rid of the real boundaries of my room making it "seem" bigger than it is.
It isn't making the listening experience a 360 degree event, nor did I mean to do that. All it adds is that sense of space and gives you more envelopment.
Staging is still in front of the listener aside from that sense of space.
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Wesayso, have you ever tried Back loaded horn emulation? Just adding 10ms (3meter ?) delayed 400 hz low passed signal. It's a great effect for someone who has accurate speakers. I don't know if it works with line alley, though. Instant Tannoy Jensen like vintage feel. Good for old recordings, symphony and dub.
wesayso, those are St.Cecelia's IR response.
How correct is the sound can only be answered by you hearing them.
In fact, the IR speakers can be considered as some sort of room tuning. You are converting your room to a bigger venue.
The IR and your rooms natural reflection combines to give you realism.
Every IR was recorded at a certain location where you can experiment to find out which IR is crucial.
How correct is the sound can only be answered by you hearing them.
In fact, the IR speakers can be considered as some sort of room tuning. You are converting your room to a bigger venue.
The IR and your rooms natural reflection combines to give you realism.
Every IR was recorded at a certain location where you can experiment to find out which IR is crucial.
Your experience - Design & Soundstage/imaging.
Sorry my bad english.
I am newbie in DIY, but so far the home made coaxial speaker seems to give very good
soundstage and imaging.
I am using digital XO and EQ with Audiolense and a 8 channel RME Fireface UC.
-15" Eminence beta
-Scan-Speak R2604
-12×12 GPA 414 (me build? -not)
Still testing, not finish yet. Want to test other drivers. Need more money.
Sorry my bad english.
I am newbie in DIY, but so far the home made coaxial speaker seems to give very good
soundstage and imaging.
I am using digital XO and EQ with Audiolense and a 8 channel RME Fireface UC.
-15" Eminence beta
-Scan-Speak R2604
-12×12 GPA 414 (me build? -not)
Still testing, not finish yet. Want to test other drivers. Need more money.
Wesayso, have you ever tried Back loaded horn emulation? Just adding 10ms (3meter ?) delayed 400 hz low passed signal. It's a great effect for someone who has accurate speakers. I don't know if it works with line alley, though. Instant Tannoy Jensen like vintage feel. Good for old recordings, symphony and dub.
I can't say I have, what do you suggest, adding it to ambient channels or the mains? Might be a fun test..
Which makes it not that different from what I am doing
. I just prefer the synthesized version as it changes with/adjusts to every song. But I don't have 22 of them nor do I have room for that. The diffused nature of them makes it sound natural, even when played by itself it sounds distant. Highly adjustable and I haven't tried all of its possibilities or settings yet.
Your experience - Design & Soundstage/imaging.
Sorry my bad english.
I am newbie in DIY, but so far the home made coaxial speaker seems to give very good
soundstage and imaging.
I am using digital XO and EQ with Audiolense and a 8 channel RME Fireface UC.
-15" Eminence beta
-Scan-Speak R2604
-12×12 GPA 414 (me build? -not)
Still testing, not finish yet. Want to test other drivers. Need more money.
Eh? 12 off 12" woofers?? What's that all about?
Are you a serious open baffle head too
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