parrot said:
saving the link, and being careful not to get too close to the edge...
panomaniac said:
Great to hear I can go that high! I'm a little concerned about beaming, but more in how the tweeter will sound going low. (Whichever tweeter that may be.)
I don't have 6 channels, was planning on testing mono, with hope of designing a passive crossover for MT after playing around with a 3 way active cross. If that doesn't work, I'm thinking a simple amp for the tweeters should be fine...not much power.
tinitus said:
I looked at those 10's, but they didn't look like a good fit for a sealed box, and something bothers me about Pioneer. I realize the latter is a lousy reason, but I do have some somewhat tilted likes and dislikes.
This reminds me, though. Does anyone have a link to specs for the Tag 6.5? I know there's always a reality gap, and I still want to try both the Tag and the Alpha....but I like looking at the graphs. It's the geek in me.
tinitus said:
This will probably raise eyebrows, but I'd planned to use the two 4's in series. My mental model of a speaker, electrically, is of a winding of a PM motor...either a series or parallel connection of two identical PM motors works fine, as long as they're physically loaded the same. It won't be as loud for the same voltage level, but should be similar to that of a single 8 ohm driver...with less work for the driver, and much easier on the amp than 2x8 in parallel.
I'd use 2x8 if I were only planning on having this work from pro/high end amps, but I'd like the option of running these from a couple of stereo 100-200 watt consumer amps. If that isn't possible, I can live with it, but I want to give it a shot.
tinitus said:
Smooth I understand, I'd like to avoid having to do any special EQ - although I initially thought I would have to do that for all drivers. Avoiding the rolloffs in the same area I don't understand. Is this because if the crossover is near the rolloff, but not exactly at the same point, I'd be looking at a "bump" in the combined rolloff?
Here is the spec page for the W6-789
That smaller mid that Tinitus pointed out looks interesting. If it has the midrange magic of its bigger brother, it could be a winner.
I don't think you'll have trouble finding a tweeter to match the FR. Maybe a good match by ear would be harder. So a passive crossover might not be too difficult.
In the Magna Cum Laude project over on P.E. that uses the W6-789 as a mid, Darren has crossed over at 3K to the tweeter, 400Hz to the woofers 12dB/octave. In his following project, the Blue Wonder, he crosses the 8" mid to the tweeter at 2.2K.
Just a couple of recent examples. Obviously some people (like me) run the mid even higher.
[quote}something bothers me about Pioneer. I realize the latter is a lousy reason, but I do have some somewhat tilted likes and dislikes.[/quote]
Go with your gut feeling. That's what it's there for.
That smaller mid that Tinitus pointed out looks interesting. If it has the midrange magic of its bigger brother, it could be a winner.
I don't think you'll have trouble finding a tweeter to match the FR. Maybe a good match by ear would be harder. So a passive crossover might not be too difficult.
In the Magna Cum Laude project over on P.E. that uses the W6-789 as a mid, Darren has crossed over at 3K to the tweeter, 400Hz to the woofers 12dB/octave. In his following project, the Blue Wonder, he crosses the 8" mid to the tweeter at 2.2K.
Just a couple of recent examples. Obviously some people (like me) run the mid even higher.
Why? Don't a lot of crossover designs use the combination of acoustical and electrical roll off to achieve a steeper slope? I don't think that would be needed in a 3 way like this, tho.
[quote}something bothers me about Pioneer. I realize the latter is a lousy reason, but I do have some somewhat tilted likes and dislikes.[/quote]
Go with your gut feeling. That's what it's there for.
Be carefull that you dont get misslead by ...."your gut feeling"
Actually its a false presumption that its much easier to make a closed box work than a BR .... in reality its much harder
Most suitable drivers are flawed in several ways
Its much easier to find a nice driver fore BR
And you have little way of tuning .... other than modding membrane weight
Sure, closed box can be nice ..... if you are very lucky!
This doesnt means I dont like closed box .... I use it myself .... but at the moment I am just not convinced that its any special
Actually its a false presumption that its much easier to make a closed box work than a BR .... in reality its much harder
Most suitable drivers are flawed in several ways
Its much easier to find a nice driver fore BR
And you have little way of tuning .... other than modding membrane weight
Sure, closed box can be nice ..... if you are very lucky!
This doesnt means I dont like closed box .... I use it myself .... but at the moment I am just not convinced that its any special
Hmmm... Well maybe Tinitus is a ported box genius - I sure am not.
Sealed boxes do seem to be easier for me, and others I know, to get right. But maybe it just because you can't do much with them after they're sealed!
Tuning ports is darn tricky. Not hard to get sound out, but getting a good balance is not so easy. Small changes in the port can often mean big changes in the sound. Same for stuffing.
I say stick to the Vifa or Usher drivers. Unless someone can show you a good design with those Pioneer, or the budget will allow them only, why use them? Not saying it's impossible to get good sound out of them, but the chances would seem much, much better with the Vifa or Usher.
If you're shooting in the dark, at least point the gun toward the noise. That ricochet shot will be hard to pull off.
Sealed boxes do seem to be easier for me, and others I know, to get right. But maybe it just because you can't do much with them after they're sealed!
Tuning ports is darn tricky. Not hard to get sound out, but getting a good balance is not so easy. Small changes in the port can often mean big changes in the sound. Same for stuffing.
I say stick to the Vifa or Usher drivers. Unless someone can show you a good design with those Pioneer, or the budget will allow them only, why use them? Not saying it's impossible to get good sound out of them, but the chances would seem much, much better with the Vifa or Usher.
If you're shooting in the dark, at least point the gun toward the noise. That ricochet shot will be hard to pull off.
Pano - Thanks for the link! It's going to be interesting to see which of the two mids I like better.
In some respects it might be better to use a smaller mid with a pair of 10" woofers. I want to stick with the 6.5's for a couple of reasons, mostly because I think it's going to sound better with the range of sound I'm most interested in. Beaming I'm less worried about, because I don't care about that as much.
I mainly want to stay away from ported because I'm chicken, because I want to reduce the number of variables that I have to deal with. My understanding of the port is that it modifies the resonance of the speaker, and that the port acts as an audio source itself. Well, that's telling me I have a delay path, frequency dependent phase changes...actually probably mutiple paths within the speaker, and then the issue of the interactions of the resultant sound from two different shaped devices coming from the speaker. I don't know how to model that, and I'm pretty sure the variables are numerous. Of course the disadvantages of the sealed speaker are the lower efficiency, the need for drivers that can handle it, and the earlier low end rolloff. Probably the ideal would be the TL designs I'm being tempted with, but that leads me to the chicken part, and that I do want to tackle something simpler for me.
Or in other words, I believe I can deal with the disadvantages of a sealed box by using good drivers, active crossover, and if I need to the brute force of digital EQ. I'm *much* more comfortable in the electrical rather than audio domain. For me, designing and tuning a multi-pole active filter from scratch would be easier than tuning the port in a known kit, let alone a scratch design. BTW, how did you know I was a shooter? The secret is to never point the gun at YOURSELF.
I'd looked at the Magna Cum Laude project, and didn't even notice the drivers. I'm going to have to look at those projects again...very cool.
The gut feeling on that particular driver manufacturer is one of those things that would lead me to second guess the whole speaker down the road. Sort of like the effect where if you've had food poisoning you are likely turned off by whatever the food was that caused it, even if you're sure it's fine. Just a personal thing, more emotional than logical.
If I were going to change woofers, it would probably be to go with a pair of 12's, rather than 10's, lower resonance and probably more efficient, but I think the 10's will work. Still leaning toward the Vifa's.
...still don't know what I want to do for a tweeter.
In some respects it might be better to use a smaller mid with a pair of 10" woofers. I want to stick with the 6.5's for a couple of reasons, mostly because I think it's going to sound better with the range of sound I'm most interested in. Beaming I'm less worried about, because I don't care about that as much.
I mainly want to stay away from ported because I'm chicken, because I want to reduce the number of variables that I have to deal with. My understanding of the port is that it modifies the resonance of the speaker, and that the port acts as an audio source itself. Well, that's telling me I have a delay path, frequency dependent phase changes...actually probably mutiple paths within the speaker, and then the issue of the interactions of the resultant sound from two different shaped devices coming from the speaker. I don't know how to model that, and I'm pretty sure the variables are numerous. Of course the disadvantages of the sealed speaker are the lower efficiency, the need for drivers that can handle it, and the earlier low end rolloff. Probably the ideal would be the TL designs I'm being tempted with
, but that leads me to the chicken part, and that I do want to tackle something simpler for me.Or in other words, I believe I can deal with the disadvantages of a sealed box by using good drivers, active crossover, and if I need to the brute force of digital EQ. I'm *much* more comfortable in the electrical rather than audio domain. For me, designing and tuning a multi-pole active filter from scratch would be easier than tuning the port in a known kit, let alone a scratch design. BTW, how did you know I was a shooter?
The secret is to never point the gun at YOURSELF.I'd looked at the Magna Cum Laude project, and didn't even notice the drivers. I'm going to have to look at those projects again...very cool.
The gut feeling on that particular driver manufacturer is one of those things that would lead me to second guess the whole speaker down the road. Sort of like the effect where if you've had food poisoning you are likely turned off by whatever the food was that caused it, even if you're sure it's fine. Just a personal thing, more emotional than logical.
If I were going to change woofers, it would probably be to go with a pair of 12's, rather than 10's, lower resonance and probably more efficient, but I think the 10's will work. Still leaning toward the Vifa's.
...still don't know what I want to do for a tweeter.
Can't help you there. In a few weeks I may have Selenium slot tweeters in place with the TangBands. That's about all.
As for the rest of it, makes sense to me! Get the Vifas, build the boxes, try the mids. Sounds like a good plan.
How will you proceed? Will you build 2 boxes right away - one with the Eminence, the other with the TangBand? The TB might need a bigger box to be happy than the Apha 6.
My guess is that the TB will be smoother, the Apha more lively. But will wait to hear what you report. I understand your reasons for choosing the 6.5" mid.
Time to find out what box tuning the Vifas will like. Plenty of software out there to get you started, but the finer points will be hard. Maybe you should ask over on the Madisound forum. If you restrict your enquiry to dual Vifas in a closed box, you should get some good answers. Would be nice to hear from some guys who have used them.
The food poisoning analogy is spot on, BTW.
Let us know how it goes.
panomaniac said:
I'd initially planned to build a test box from MDF, and test each of the mids in it by computer and by ear. Now I'm thinking I need to devise a simple way of adjusting the midrange enclosures as part of the test.
I need to learn how what I want to hear compares to what I see. I suspect my senses are much in line with a flat curve in the mid area I'm interested in, but I really have no idea what flat sound like at the low and high ends of the spectrum. My worry with the mids is now that I'll like them both!
I like the Madisound forum idea. For that, I think I'll wait until I have drivers in hand. I'd like to be able to try things and post feedback without loosing momentum.
My tweeter comment was in part wondering out loud. I want to search around for designs using the 6.5 Tag, and the Alpha, to see where they're crossing and with what. The Magna Cum Laude project is interesting. I'm wondering if I'm being too stuffy about the tweeter. I'm now thinking of trying a fabric dome from Tag, one from Seas, and something else of a different type, maybe a bullet/horn.
I really do appreciate all the info from everyone. At this point I need to do a bit more research, then start buying parts. I'll post updates when I start. This may be an early spring thing, though.
Hello Tom,
I just found this thread, being rather new around here.
Your project is very similar to what I'm currently planning. A 3-way sealed system with extended LF response from a Linkwitz Transform circuit, and a 24dB/Oct Linkwitz-Riley active crossover driving 3 separate amps.
I thought you might be interested in those two projects for taking care of the equalization part:
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/project71.htm
That site is a goldmine of info, but maybe you already knew about it. With the downloadable spreadsheet and the calculator program, all the tedious calculations are done for you.
Have you thought about Peerless woofers? The 10" 830843 and the 12" 830845 seem just perfect for extended bass in a sealed box. However, you mention a target low freq. of 40-50 Hz; A sealed box of about 4 cu. ft. with one of those drivers would easily go lower than that, without the help of the Linkwitz Transform. With the transform and a boost of less than 20dB, you could reach 20Hz!
Maybe a single 12" would be enough to balance the other drivers, I would be interested in the other's opinions on this.
Will follow this thread closely,
Guy
I just found this thread, being rather new around here.
Your project is very similar to what I'm currently planning. A 3-way sealed system with extended LF response from a Linkwitz Transform circuit, and a 24dB/Oct Linkwitz-Riley active crossover driving 3 separate amps.
I thought you might be interested in those two projects for taking care of the equalization part:
http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/project71.htm
That site is a goldmine of info, but maybe you already knew about it. With the downloadable spreadsheet and the calculator program, all the tedious calculations are done for you.
Have you thought about Peerless woofers? The 10" 830843 and the 12" 830845 seem just perfect for extended bass in a sealed box. However, you mention a target low freq. of 40-50 Hz; A sealed box of about 4 cu. ft. with one of those drivers would easily go lower than that, without the help of the Linkwitz Transform. With the transform and a boost of less than 20dB, you could reach 20Hz!
Maybe a single 12" would be enough to balance the other drivers, I would be interested in the other's opinions on this.
Will follow this thread closely,
Guy
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