And they are slowly closing up shop. Tango closed shop... not because the business was bad, but because they were all getting long in the tooth. Similar things will likely happen to the others
So there is nobody carrying on. Mark my words. Niche business with no young blood learning the trade. Today young people don't care about high end or diy.. their lives revolve around social media, smart phones, facebook, etc.
Dear 45
How many times have you been to Japan in the last 5 years? I go every year and will be going again this year. Local DIY is drying up there. I know from talking with dealers and locals.
Tamura staff is also mostly past retirement age. Hashimoto is still producing, yes. Noguchi is a niche business. The other producers I know as well, but they really only cater to the local market.
Here are the sad facts:
1. No new designs. Simply nothing new out of Japan in ages. Yes, they did much in the 1970's and 1980's but since then it has been a slow and steady decline much like the Japan economy as a whole.
2. They completely missed the parafeed movement.
3. In the last few years I am finding many foreign transformers in Japan. You name it, they have it. In the past you would never find new US transformers in Japan. The China and Taiwan stuff abounds as well. That was not the case 10 years ago.
4. I am seeing significant numbers USED Japan transformers in shops. Basically, amplifiers are getting stripped for parts. While I enjoy this development as I get the occasional bargain, it is on the whole not good.
I do love their single-ended output transformers. For the size they are truly impressive. You of course MUST be aware of their primary impedance.. but others have already discussed this. The interstages are actually most interesting for me, if you know what I mean.
But today, you can get similar NEW quality OPT's from sources in Asia, Europe and the US too. Also, many of these sources will build to spec and can even do design... That is not possible in Japan since design competency left long ago. These are my observations. Take it or leave it.
How many times have you been to Japan in the last 5 years? I go every year and will be going again this year. Local DIY is drying up there. I know from talking with dealers and locals.
Tamura staff is also mostly past retirement age. Hashimoto is still producing, yes. Noguchi is a niche business. The other producers I know as well, but they really only cater to the local market.
Here are the sad facts:
1. No new designs. Simply nothing new out of Japan in ages. Yes, they did much in the 1970's and 1980's but since then it has been a slow and steady decline much like the Japan economy as a whole.
2. They completely missed the parafeed movement.
3. In the last few years I am finding many foreign transformers in Japan. You name it, they have it. In the past you would never find new US transformers in Japan. The China and Taiwan stuff abounds as well. That was not the case 10 years ago.
4. I am seeing significant numbers USED Japan transformers in shops. Basically, amplifiers are getting stripped for parts. While I enjoy this development as I get the occasional bargain, it is on the whole not good.
I do love their single-ended output transformers. For the size they are truly impressive. You of course MUST be aware of their primary impedance.. but others have already discussed this. The interstages are actually most interesting for me, if you know what I mean.
But today, you can get similar NEW quality OPT's from sources in Asia, Europe and the US too. Also, many of these sources will build to spec and can even do design... That is not possible in Japan since design competency left long ago. These are my observations. Take it or leave it.
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Why do you need new designs? Valves haven't changed! They have already perfected output transformers. It's the other that have to catch up, yet....
I missed it as well. It is a compromised solution.
Nothing wrong with this. Globalization is the same everywhere.
This is true for the tubes as well since a long time!
Yes I know and there is nothing wrong with inductance. Just to stay in topic, the Hashimoto line-out transformer 10K:600R has got a MINIMUM inductance of 95H!
I cannot better their best transformers I CAN better Lundahls and other Westerns brands already using EI cores. EASILY! Ask my friend Ale.....
Oh, I missed this!! Again, I don't think so.
They WILL do a custom design if they WANT and in that case you have to place a minimum order. They might not care about a single because it's not convenient. It's a choice and it has nothing to do with expertise.
Anyway can you design a transformer? I strongly doubt you are competent enough to be in the position of judging their competence.
Ale asked me about a different transformer for his 814SE because the Lundahl could not do even 20KHz. It has a clear resonance at 17KHz. Very bad as it is not a cheap piece of kit.
Dear 45
I am surprised you are not interested in the fine English winders. They can also do custom jobs that the Japanese don't offer. I am surprised you didn't point Ale to Sowter.
I agree with the Lundahl sentiment. I have some very mediocre Lundahl OPT's sitting here. However Thomas Mayer assures me that their newer designs are far better.
Also, I know of a very good Italian designer who can also do custom jobs. His winding techniques are not stuck in the 1970's like pretty much all stuff from Japan. Of course he is not cheap but that is beside the point.
What do you think about R core? What about Torroidals? Japanese never did those since they lack competency. Ok, lets leave Torroidals out of the discussion since they are pretty much the best you can get for P-P and old-time Japan never figured out how to build P-P transformers to that level. they were always busy with single-ended "madness".
But R core is interesting. Why don't Japanese do them? Again.. lack of design competency. I was skeptical of R core but have been much surprised with what can be done with them. I don't think that for the price anything comes close.
I would take a modern Taiwan R-core transformer or a Tango U808 any day of the week.
I know other winders for custom jobs. But very few in Japan are up to the task (if any) due to loss of design competency. Its a fact that Iso Tango did not do new designs. Now they are gone. Just look at transformers like the U808 though.. thoroughly old design that sucks, but iso tango still made them. Why? Maybe no idea how to do something better for the same money? No design competency.
On a side note... you and I probably can't hear much over 15kHz anyway...
I am surprised you are not interested in the fine English winders. They can also do custom jobs that the Japanese don't offer. I am surprised you didn't point Ale to Sowter.
I agree with the Lundahl sentiment. I have some very mediocre Lundahl OPT's sitting here. However Thomas Mayer assures me that their newer designs are far better.
Also, I know of a very good Italian designer who can also do custom jobs. His winding techniques are not stuck in the 1970's like pretty much all stuff from Japan. Of course he is not cheap but that is beside the point.
What do you think about R core? What about Torroidals? Japanese never did those since they lack competency. Ok, lets leave Torroidals out of the discussion since they are pretty much the best you can get for P-P and old-time Japan never figured out how to build P-P transformers to that level. they were always busy with single-ended "madness".
But R core is interesting. Why don't Japanese do them? Again.. lack of design competency. I was skeptical of R core but have been much surprised with what can be done with them. I don't think that for the price anything comes close.
I would take a modern Taiwan R-core transformer or a Tango U808 any day of the week.
I know other winders for custom jobs. But very few in Japan are up to the task (if any) due to loss of design competency. Its a fact that Iso Tango did not do new designs. Now they are gone. Just look at transformers like the U808 though.. thoroughly old design that sucks, but iso tango still made them. Why? Maybe no idea how to do something better for the same money? No design competency.
On a side note... you and I probably can't hear much over 15kHz anyway...
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For output transformers Sowter are simply not in the same league. They good but definitively not in the same league. They only use EI cores and are quite expensive! Their winding scheme is limited to one or two solutions and power loss of their transformers is not that good in most cases.
Signal transformers are different. Especially those using mu-metal cores.
The only alternatives to Japanese xformers I consider on the same level are Monolith Magnetics and MegaHertz Audio. Of course I am talking about manufacturers that have at least a catalog to choose from and listed prices....
It is nothing sentimental. Lundahl's are good OT's however they are not so universal as their datasheet might suggest. They work fine on the lower loss primary connection. Some them are still fine with 0.5 dB power loss solution. Most of them are not great on the the 0.8 dB connection. Apparently there is a lot of headroom and high inductance but at the other end of the frequency range they are not good. The blanket is always short...
Quite rubbish for SE application. They are always short of inductance. R core is good for PSU transformers and PP only. However there are better materials for PP applications.
I only consider R-core for PSU transformers. That's the reason of their existence....
They are not needed. It's just a waste of time. F3 @100KHz or 150KHz doesn't make any difference in practice and other issues are introduced.
I am afraid but you are not competent enough to state this. Moreover you should run a business with a catalog, pay wages etc.
The 808 is nice little transformer. I HAVE it. However it has low inductance and quite some power loss. The extended high frequency response has a price. It's a design choice. Again, the blanket is always short, especially with SE transformers. You just can't have extended hi and low FR, low loss and small size all the same time.
On a side note... you and I probably can't hear much over 15kHz anyway...
17KHz @ -3 db means it's rolling off well before. It's clearly audible. Anyone can hear it unless he has serious problems. It's just poor for nearly 500 euros for a pair.
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From a user perspective the only thing you need to worry about is the unbalance in PP transformers. The amount they can take is usually really small (if not specified). That's the reason why often amplifiers using those have servo-bias.
SE transformers don't have any problem but they are not better than C cores transformers in the same category. From any perspective.
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What exactly you are trying to achieve with R core what is not possible with C-core? R-core requires twin-coil design and special winding machine, which is not as common as CNC linear winder. Its much easier to get required core cross-section (which have to be quite large), and custom dimensions, with EI or double C core, rather then with R-core. Additionally, choice of different alloys is much broader with C rather then R.
R-core transformers have been originally designed for 50/60Hz PS units with constrained space requirements, low core loss at high flux density, relatively low leakage inductance, and production cost lower then toroids. Which of these parameters is actual for audio frequency transformer???
BTW, toroids have their own gremlins like relatively high stray capacitance if wound conventional way.
So its not question of design competence, its reasonable sufficiency.
They are made right here in the USA
I am currently running the TT-10-OT at 85mA w/ the 6HJ5 tube. If I remember correctly I was estimating an rp of ~400 with that tube. I believe they designed that OT for a 300b which has almost double the rp. With their assumption of 20H and rp of 700 we get our -3db breakpoint at 5.5Hz, with the rp of 400 it's down to 3Hz. I didn't measure the inductance of them under operating conditions but did with the secondary open and zero DC current, it was something like 45H.
I did frequency test the output on an 8 ohm load, the low end extends far lower than my Klipsch La Scala's. If I remember I didn't see a drop in amplitude (2.83v) until under 30Hz. I did notice the top end didn't extend too far, this is kind of what I wanted anyway.......I hate treble.......probably why I hate DC to daylight bandwidth SS amps......I have to have EQ with them and drop the highs. Knowing I was going to use a low rp tube I could have gone with iron w/ less inductance which may have helped in the top end but like I said I would much rather have good low end which my amp does have. With horn loaded speakers you need very smooth highs which these OT's provide.
I plan to do more testing and update my thread. I am limited with test equipment and plan to bring it to a more professional environment with a real analyzer. I can put it back on the bench and do what I did last time which was measure in octaves 20Hz-20,480Hz at 1 watt out and plot it on paper. I lost the paper I did it last time with but I remember I had really good low end response.
I recently started getting into SE amps and haven't built too many but I have noticed that the difference between two manufacturers of similar output transformers can yield totally different sonics.
Sorry to tell you this 45, but the R-core single-ended output transformers I have are actually Japanese design, made in Japan.
I got them on my last trip to Yokohama. They are surprisingly good performers, especially considering the size and price. Yes, I agree with Linksguru in his assessment of the difficulty in winding R-cores. But I guess this is where the winder's competencies are. They can also do custom jobs, but are of course limited by their core stock. They are the only current producer I know of in Japan who is willing to do custom jobs for DIY.
I think that if you had to consider transport costs, then it is usually more economical to find a source closer to home. Sowter is the obvious choice for UK buyers. UK Audio-Note too of course. I would most certainly choose newer Lundahl over a tango U808. It took me a rather long time to generate a suitable schematic to overcome the U808 shortcomings, which you clearly noted. My opinion stands firm on its usefulness.
I assure you that I can and have done transformer design, but I fully admit that engineering assistance is an absolute must for me. Physicists sometimes come up with impossible goals... Software today makes calculations much easier, but does not always vet the impossible.
I must inform you that I will be putting your posts on ignore from now on. Your emphatic personal attacks are really not pleasant.
Best regards
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Sorry to tell you this 45, but the R-core single-ended output transformers I have are actually Japanese design, made in Japan.
Yes I know them and I repeat they are rubbish. Poor inductance and a lot of distortion below 100-120 Hz. PP models are ok. They are rather cheap though and I am not sure they are effectively made in Japan....
Sorry to tell you this 45, but the R-core single-ended output transformers I have are actually Japanese design, made in Japan.
I got them on my last trip to Yokohama. They are surprisingly good performers, especially considering the size and price. Yes, I agree with Linksguru in his assessment of the difficulty in winding R-cores. But I guess this is where the winder's competencies are. They can also do custom jobs, but are of course limited by their core stock. They are the only current producer I know of in Japan who is willing to do custom jobs for DIY.
In terms of magnetic properties R-cores have nothing more to offer than C-cores when shape and dimensions are the same, and equal quality core material is presumed.
R-cores have round bobbins which require dedicated winding machines; the main benefit is that round bobbins can be wound faster than square or rectangular ones, so it is an economical affair.
With good design R-core audio transformers can be as good as C-core transformers, but c-cores offer more flexibility for custom winding as they can easily be stacked when it is needed to have enough Afe.
Besides c-cores offer flexibilty in applying air gaps (also for PP transformers....).
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Fully agree Pieter. As I note, I think this is simply where their competencies are. I could not get such a visit to other manufacturers in Japan.
There is a new one called HATT, but I don't think he speaks any English. His transformers resemble some Tango designs. Also, it appears that the Tango brand has been picked-up again. Very limited catalog and also don't respond to foreign contact. We will see, but it doesn't look very promising.
Most people would probably pick Kyoto as a side-trip destination. Its lovely and I have been there many times. My Japan business colleagues thought I was a bit crazy to want to go to Yokohama...
There is a new one called HATT, but I don't think he speaks any English. His transformers resemble some Tango designs. Also, it appears that the Tango brand has been picked-up again. Very limited catalog and also don't respond to foreign contact. We will see, but it doesn't look very promising.
Most people would probably pick Kyoto as a side-trip destination. Its lovely and I have been there many times. My Japan business colleagues thought I was a bit crazy to want to go to Yokohama...
Sowter is not obvious at all for me. 550-600 GBP for a pair of their best transformers is not really a good deal. They have EI core and moreover power loss is not really good. They have rather high secondary Rdc. Optimal design is when secondary and primary have each 50% of the winding volume. Losses are minimized. It's mathematical. The reason why they use most of the volume for the primary is obvious....
Free to choose what you want but it doesn't change the fact that Lundahls output transformers are all made in the same way so, depending on impedance and applications, some perform ok some quite less than ok. And you don't know until you use them..
The U808 is a small transformer. Certainly was not a flagship but still beats hands down many acclaimed transformers...
I am a physicist as well.
I really don't care. We don't eat at the same table, you know. However I am not attacking anyone. I am just responding to nonsense.....
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