Re: Re: Re: Re: Wide range horn confusion..
Hi all
This is what I am thinking about at the moment,
IMHO you lose resolution with normal cone drivers in horns
compared to comp-drivers. Some crazy japanese ( crazy in a good way )
people are using Ale comp-drivers in the bass, most people will never go that far
but my own modest test have indicated that the futher down you can go with suitable comp-drivers, the more fun you have . One suitable horns , of course.
At the moment I am using TAD 2002s down to 640 Hz, in a crap horn ,
with eq, I am wondering how low I can go with a proper horn.
If one use another comp-driver in a bigger horn below that, hmmmm.....
This is for normal listening rooms , of course.
Some sort of bass arangement below that again, you end up with a 3-way.
cheers
Ken L said:
Hi all
This is what I am thinking about at the moment,
IMHO you lose resolution with normal cone drivers in horns
compared to comp-drivers. Some crazy japanese ( crazy in a good way )
people are using Ale comp-drivers in the bass, most people will never go that far
but my own modest test have indicated that the futher down you can go with suitable comp-drivers, the more fun you have . One suitable horns , of course.
At the moment I am using TAD 2002s down to 640 Hz, in a crap horn ,
with eq, I am wondering how low I can go with a proper horn.
If one use another comp-driver in a bigger horn below that, hmmmm.....
This is for normal listening rooms , of course.
Some sort of bass arangement below that again, you end up with a 3-way.
cheers
Re: Midbass
Hi Tim , all
I've been thinking about the 1201 a lot lately,
but unfortunately I can't get to hear it before I eventually order it,
and it IS expensive, so probably not.
That's what I'm using at the moment,
TAD 2002 on top, 1601 at the bottom crossed at 640Hz
with another 15" woofer to help at the bottom .
Need a mid horn , tho
I think dipole bass is a taste thing, some like it, some don't ....
I know you are right about the kick from the midbasshorn ,tho.....
cheers
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim , all
I've been thinking about the 1201 a lot lately,
but unfortunately I can't get to hear it before I eventually order it,
and it IS expensive, so probably not.
Tim Moorman said:
That's what I'm using at the moment,
TAD 2002 on top, 1601 at the bottom crossed at 640Hz
with another 15" woofer to help at the bottom .
Need a mid horn , tho
Tim Moorman said:
I think dipole bass is a taste thing, some like it, some don't ....
I know you are right about the kick from the midbasshorn ,tho.....
cheers
Re: Horny..
Hi Rocky, all
And still the WE 555 is a rather small driver,
2" voice coil and so on.
Usable from 100-6000 Hz acording to Hiraga
cheers
OK , I'll shut up now
Rocky said:Western Electric 555 field coil compression driver.. goes down to 100Hz, and is *only* arond $3000 a pair..used ofcourse..
used to cover the 60-6000Hz range in the Vitaphone movie sound systems..
Hi Rocky, all
And still the WE 555 is a rather small driver,
2" voice coil and so on.
Usable from 100-6000 Hz acording to Hiraga
cheers
OK , I'll shut up now
WE 555..... Usable from 100-6000 Hz acording to Hiraga.
====
I wonder. Attached to the Vitaphone horn (probably the best wide BW horn yet built) it was 'only' good for 100-5k (~5.64 octaves), at 25% efficiency no less!
I'm surprised that they go for 'only' $3k/pair considering that relatively few have survived. I personally know of dozens of them, along with even more RCA FC drivers, that were scrapped in the '60s for their superior lams material. Seemed like the thing to do at the time..........
GM
====
I wonder. Attached to the Vitaphone horn (probably the best wide BW horn yet built) it was 'only' good for 100-5k (~5.64 octaves), at 25% efficiency no less!
I'm surprised that they go for 'only' $3k/pair considering that relatively few have survived. I personally know of dozens of them, along with even more RCA FC drivers, that were scrapped in the '60s for their superior lams material. Seemed like the thing to do at the time..........
GM
WE 555
They are pretty rare these days. Large exodus to Asian buyers over the years has kept the price high and availability poor...sigh.
Of course, they were into flea powered tube systems well ahead of the mainstream.
SloMo -- My feeling is that a 3-way will almost always better a two-way, and where full horn systems are concerned it can go beyond that, if from nothing more than reduced bandwidth. There are exceptions, but they are usually expensive like the TAD comp drivers, or the WE, RCA, etc. Even the 1.4 Altecs have no high end (beyond 8K maybe), but they do have very nice mids on the big horns. The larger format drivers really do seem to get the mids right.
GM -- I have heard John Sheerin's mono mock up of the Unity, and it has great potential. John used inexpensive 5" MCM drivers for the mids, and they never really worked out to his satifaction. The problem was loading the horn close to the apex to keep phase integrated with the 1" comp driver, and still get the bandwidth required. The throat was small, the compression ratio ended up being quite high, and the front chamber was difficult to adjust as the driver was recessed into the horn exterior. Then (2) EV 12"s were on the exterior beyond the mids (toward mouth). Very coherent sound, and a design that just makes such good sense from a variety of viewpoints. My goal too...but as a DIY.
The good folks at Yorkville have their licensed version out in a W-U-W, with the W being 15" JBLs as I recall. Never heard Nick's version from Lambda.
Tim
They are pretty rare these days. Large exodus to Asian buyers over the years has kept the price high and availability poor...sigh.
Of course, they were into flea powered tube systems well ahead of the mainstream.
SloMo -- My feeling is that a 3-way will almost always better a two-way, and where full horn systems are concerned it can go beyond that, if from nothing more than reduced bandwidth. There are exceptions, but they are usually expensive like the TAD comp drivers, or the WE, RCA, etc. Even the 1.4 Altecs have no high end (beyond 8K maybe), but they do have very nice mids on the big horns. The larger format drivers really do seem to get the mids right.
GM -- I have heard John Sheerin's mono mock up of the Unity, and it has great potential. John used inexpensive 5" MCM drivers for the mids, and they never really worked out to his satifaction. The problem was loading the horn close to the apex to keep phase integrated with the 1" comp driver, and still get the bandwidth required. The throat was small, the compression ratio ended up being quite high, and the front chamber was difficult to adjust as the driver was recessed into the horn exterior. Then (2) EV 12"s were on the exterior beyond the mids (toward mouth). Very coherent sound, and a design that just makes such good sense from a variety of viewpoints. My goal too...but as a DIY.
The good folks at Yorkville have their licensed version out in a W-U-W, with the W being 15" JBLs as I recall. Never heard Nick's version from Lambda.
Tim
Re: WE 555
Hi Tim, all
I used to have a mono 4-way, midbass and bass on open baffle,
mid and top on horns, played like that for allmost 3 years,
sounded much better than what I have now.
But I suddenly wanted stereo again
So I agree with you , on multiway horns.
2-ways are simple, tho , and that's why I have a 2-way now.
Much easier to get coherent music.
I probably won't be able to stop myself from going multiway again , tho
heheh....
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim, all
I used to have a mono 4-way, midbass and bass on open baffle,
mid and top on horns, played like that for allmost 3 years,
sounded much better than what I have now.
But I suddenly wanted stereo again
So I agree with you , on multiway horns.
2-ways are simple, tho , and that's why I have a 2-way now.
Much easier to get coherent music.
I probably won't be able to stop myself from going multiway again , tho
heheh....
>GM -- I have heard John Sheerin's mono mock up of the Unity, and it has great potential. John used inexpensive 5" MCM drivers for the mids, and they never really worked out to his satifaction. The problem was loading the horn close to the apex to keep phase integrated with the 1" comp driver, and still get the bandwidth required. The throat was small, the compression ratio ended up being quite high, and the front chamber was difficult to adjust as the driver was recessed into the horn exterior.
====
I did a 'proof of concept' several years ago using two 40-1197 and a 40-1218 piezo horn tweeter and it showed considerable promise, but it had some comb filtering problems that confounded me at the time, and since I needed the drivers for another project, dismantled it. I think I've figured it out, but haven't felt like messing with it. One of the beauties of using the tweeter as a super tweeter, is that phasing issues fall outside our acute hearing BW so it can be well behind the FR drivers and it still sounds like a coherent point source.
Anyway, I've been periodically 'building' a ~Lambda clone by helping someone via email except the plan is to go lower. The basic horn with HF is done and measures well. The mids will be Fostex FR drivers (at least as a first effort), which allows larger slotted throats, similar to Yorkville's. Based on simming using MJK's TL worksheet, the CR shouldn't be an issue, but as they say, 'sims are for show, and 3m measurements are for go', so we'll see.
GM
====
I did a 'proof of concept' several years ago using two 40-1197 and a 40-1218 piezo horn tweeter and it showed considerable promise, but it had some comb filtering problems that confounded me at the time, and since I needed the drivers for another project, dismantled it. I think I've figured it out, but haven't felt like messing with it. One of the beauties of using the tweeter as a super tweeter, is that phasing issues fall outside our acute hearing BW so it can be well behind the FR drivers and it still sounds like a coherent point source.
Anyway, I've been periodically 'building' a ~Lambda clone by helping someone via email except the plan is to go lower. The basic horn with HF is done and measures well. The mids will be Fostex FR drivers (at least as a first effort), which allows larger slotted throats, similar to Yorkville's. Based on simming using MJK's TL worksheet, the CR shouldn't be an issue, but as they say, 'sims are for show, and 3m measurements are for go', so we'll see.
GM
Re: Re: Horny..
Agreed - several people I know have heard KBrooks 5 way goto/ales fully horn loaded system and say it is truly stunning.
Only problem is that it costs more than my house!
One thing that you get with Azuras that you don't get with _most_ of the vintage compression drivers - superb dispersion - That really good dispersion contributes to the _magical_ sound of the Azuras.
FWIW, I have read comments that lead me to think that with wider dispersion that compression drivers tend to lose their resolution - if anybody reading this thread has any thoughts on that I would appreciate their comments.
Regards
Ken L
slowmotion said:
Agreed - several people I know have heard KBrooks 5 way goto/ales fully horn loaded system and say it is truly stunning.
Only problem is that it costs more than my house!
One thing that you get with Azuras that you don't get with _most_ of the vintage compression drivers - superb dispersion - That really good dispersion contributes to the _magical_ sound of the Azuras.
FWIW, I have read comments that lead me to think that with wider dispersion that compression drivers tend to lose their resolution - if anybody reading this thread has any thoughts on that I would appreciate their comments.
Regards
Ken L
Dispersion
Ken,
I hold the view that dispersion attributes seem to be in the ear of the beholder...that is, once they are managed at the crossover properly.
The solid round wood tractrix I've heard sound no better, no worse than other horns of similar cut-off and contour, mostly just different. Love the looks of them, though. I really like the Altec 511 dispersion, just not the ring.
I do think the faster flare horns like the LeCleac'h seem to offer a clean window into the recording, and work very well with cones.
I believe the flare to be similar to the Azurahorn, not sure.
Tim
Ken,
I hold the view that dispersion attributes seem to be in the ear of the beholder...that is, once they are managed at the crossover properly.
The solid round wood tractrix I've heard sound no better, no worse than other horns of similar cut-off and contour, mostly just different. Love the looks of them, though. I really like the Altec 511 dispersion, just not the ring.
I do think the faster flare horns like the LeCleac'h seem to offer a clean window into the recording, and work very well with cones.
I believe the flare to be similar to the Azurahorn, not sure.
Tim
Re: Dispersion
Yep. Azura's are a LeCleac'h flare. Original version (which I have) are 19" deep and 38" width, making for a very short throw and dispersion characteristics that are ideal for residential sized rooms.
The tractix curved Sierra Brooks grand 32 is 32 inches wide and guessing at 42" to 50" deep - so the throw is considerably longer than Azuras.
The longer throw of the tractix horns means you need to be considerably further back to get the sweet spot - and also contributes to the sweet spot being narrower.
OTOH, you get more horn loading from the tractix.
For some time, I have been considering the dispersion aspect carefully when I look at things - that is causing me to look at a number of things differently _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
Tim Moorman said:
Yep. Azura's are a LeCleac'h flare. Original version (which I have) are 19" deep and 38" width, making for a very short throw and dispersion characteristics that are ideal for residential sized rooms.
The tractix curved Sierra Brooks grand 32 is 32 inches wide and guessing at 42" to 50" deep - so the throw is considerably longer than Azuras.
The longer throw of the tractix horns means you need to be considerably further back to get the sweet spot - and also contributes to the sweet spot being narrower.
OTOH, you get more horn loading from the tractix.
For some time, I have been considering the dispersion aspect carefully when I look at things - that is causing me to look at a number of things differently _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
that's pretty durn close for a wild stab _grin_
Not sure of the technical cutoff but it starts dropping down pretty good about 125 hz -
I'm crossing over with a digital crossover at 134 hz 4th order to the subs
I've attached a jpeg where John Sheerin measured Jeffrey J's Azuras with DX4's that indicates you are very close with your calculations.
This chart also has had me thinking that eventually I may use the digital crossover only on the subs, and try the acoustic cut-off of the Azuras with the DX4's. However, when I tried that earlier with the Fostex FE206E's there was cone breakup distortion on orchestral crescendos - might be better with the DX4's and when I put the DDS waveguides on top with a passive crossover there.
My gameplan is to have the dispersion characteristics of the system match throughout the bandwith as much as possible. I have a pair of DDS ENG 1-90 pro 1" waveguides with Radian 475PB drivers. I chose the waveguides because they had the widest dispersion of any round horns I could find.
My initial target for passive crossover point to the dds horns is about 1250 hz or so. The reason I chose that point is because the Azuras are out of horn loading about 1500 hz and the ENG 1-90's load down to around 1000 hz,and because most vocal fundamentals are beneath that point.
I've got so much going on that it's hard to get time to fool around with it _grin_
It was encouraging to see Weltersys comments to Duke in HE about using cones for the 100/200 to 1000/2000 decade. While I was already embarked on that path, it makes me eager to get moving on it _bigger grin_
Regards
Ken L
Tim Moorman said:
Not sure of the technical cutoff but it starts dropping down pretty good about 125 hz -
I'm crossing over with a digital crossover at 134 hz 4th order to the subs
I've attached a jpeg where John Sheerin measured Jeffrey J's Azuras with DX4's that indicates you are very close with your calculations.
This chart also has had me thinking that eventually I may use the digital crossover only on the subs, and try the acoustic cut-off of the Azuras with the DX4's. However, when I tried that earlier with the Fostex FE206E's there was cone breakup distortion on orchestral crescendos - might be better with the DX4's and when I put the DDS waveguides on top with a passive crossover there.
My gameplan is to have the dispersion characteristics of the system match throughout the bandwith as much as possible. I have a pair of DDS ENG 1-90 pro 1" waveguides with Radian 475PB drivers. I chose the waveguides because they had the widest dispersion of any round horns I could find.
My initial target for passive crossover point to the dds horns is about 1250 hz or so. The reason I chose that point is because the Azuras are out of horn loading about 1500 hz and the ENG 1-90's load down to around 1000 hz,and because most vocal fundamentals are beneath that point.
I've got so much going on that it's hard to get time to fool around with it _grin_
It was encouraging to see Weltersys comments to Duke in HE about using cones for the 100/200 to 1000/2000 decade. While I was already embarked on that path, it makes me eager to get moving on it _bigger grin_
Regards
Ken L
Any good reason why every low-freq compression driver is priced so stupidly high? Had a look at Ale's websites, they are even more expensive than their WE ancestors from the 30's.. Is it such a d**m costly process to manufacture such a driver? I understand powerful Alnico magnets have a price, but I cannot understand why noone clones for instance the WE 555 field coil.. I cannot see why this would be such a costly process... Only reason they are so expensive is because they are so d**m hard to find, no?
Rocky said:but I cannot understand why noone clones for instance the WE 555 field coil..
Steve Schell and Rich Drysdale have been developing a modern, improved version of the classic RCA MI-1428B field coil compression driver with the intent of bringing it to production and market.
They are hopeful that they will be producing the first units by October. They have plans to scale the same design up and down for different ranges and sizes.
They have so far given no indication of price. I would think that limited custom production pieces would be relatively high or higher. _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
Five-Way Horns
Magnetar Horns Link
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Magnetar Horns Link
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.